What Women Are Learning About Men During Self-Quarantine

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S1: This ad free podcast is part of your slate plus membership.

S2: Yeah, I’ve washed my hands like a hundred times in the last 48 hours.

S3: My hands have never been drier. It’s weird how that happens. It’s also going to be the moment where all men start using hand lotion. I’m so excited about that. It’s going to happen for you. You’re gonna start to love lotion and it it’ll be a delightful part of your new life.

S1: I should have start up on coconut, but it’s only been a week since our last episode. But we’re living in a different world now. I’ve been holed up with my wife Meeta for a little more than seven days now. And I’ll be honest, I’ve been panicking a little more than she has, and I’m not quite sure that she’s ever seen me like this before. I’m wondering if that’s true for other men, too. Our social distancing and self-quarantined feel a little like an unintentional social experiment in which men are confronting a crisis and their domestic spaces like maybe they never have. I know I am, and I’m wondering how the women in our lives, like my wife Meeta, are seeing this all play out. So this week we’re going to be trying something a little different. We have five stories from women on what they’ve seen and what they’ve discovered about the men around them and how this all might change things.

S2: From now on.

S4: Hello and welcome to MAN UP, I’m your host, Aymond Smile. And on this show, we crack questions big and small about manhood. This week, relationships in a pandemic through the eyes of our quarantine partners.

S5: Slate Plus members, I’m here to remind you to take the sleep survey. It’ll be open through April 1st. This is your chance to tell us what you think about sleepless and sleet. It’ll only take a few minutes and you can find it at Slate.com slash survey.

S6: Hey, Susan. Hey, how are you doing? Surviving it been so far.

S7: It’s been busy. Big news time.

S1: This is my co-worker, Susan. She’s leading Slate’s coronavirus coverage. So she’s immersed in every new detail, every new stat and every new crisis. She also moved not too long ago with her boyfriend to an unfamiliar town where she doesn’t know a lot of people.

S8: So this pandemic has challenged her in a lot of different ways.

S9: So I think that I am sort of having the inverse of a lot of people’s experiences. So my current situation is that I live in Charlottesville, Virginia, where my boyfriend is in law school. And so I have been working from home since August when I moved here. I guess the biggest difference is that my boyfriend’s law school has canceled its classes after they’re on spring break right now. But when they come back, they’re going to be doing all of their classes online. So we’re just gonna be home all the time together while he tries to, like, attend class. And I tried to work.

S10: Wow. That seems like it’s going to be a little different than what you’re used to.

S7: Well, the interesting thing for me is that we’re not always home at the same time all the time like this is different. But since I moved here and I work from home and he does a lot of his schoolwork at home, we definitely spend quite a bit of time together. And like we have a shared office already that we have spent a lot of time in. And so like only recently have we come to a. Well, it has been sort of our revolutionary understanding in how we how we deal with the fact that we have the same office. I like really need to be in my own space. If I’m doing if I’m taking a meeting or like taking a work call. So like for months and months, I would kind of be like, can you just leave the office when I’m in a meeting? Or like, I would just really hope that he was in class when I had meetings and like things like that.

S11: But I have just realized that it’s on me to get up and go to a different room where I can close the door and just not be at my desk. But like be in a meeting. So like right now I am sitting on the floor in my bedroom during this call.

S7: I want to not be in the same space as him. Balls and doing what is essentially a meeting. So that has been a lesson that it’s like you just have to accept that you are going to have different like desires and standards from the other person that you’re working with.

S12: Like people work differently.

S13: The coverage of Slate has been like really phenomenal. And I’m thinking back to like a couple of key pieces that shifted my my position on like how serious we should take this. I think it was Henry who wrote the piece about how things were never going to go back to normal after this point and how we should really start thinking about this as like a pre corona virus and post Corona virus world.

S10: I wonder if you see that at all in your relationship.

S14: That’s an interesting question for us specifically, partly because we have been together for almost four years, it’ll be four years this summer.

S12: And so for me, when I think about our relationship generally, one of the big moments in it is already the 2016 election. Like we had only been dating seriously for like three or four months when that happened. And it was really traumatizing for both of us. I think in different ways. But it was also like very unifying for us in a sense. Like I think that it in the end like brought us a lot closer and we were more emotionally vulnerable with each other, like kind of sooner and faster because we had to be in a way. And I feel like now I kind of have this similar sense and similar feeling of like, oh, this is gonna be a huge thing that we look back on. And I think that it is going to shift. But I’m optimistic.

S13: I feel like everybody has their different crisis modes. Are you discovering anything about what your partners crisis mode looks like right now?

S11: Yeah, I think. Well, I think that one of the things throughout our relationship that I’ve become more aware of is the differences between us. Like I mean, I think that he has a bit more of like big picture thinking of the world sort of spirally way of thinking about it. He is a more natural prepper than me, and I kind of have a little bit more of a tendency to think like, oh, everything’s gonna be fine. And he is more into like it’ll be fine if we prepare for it.

S15: So that is one of the big differences that I think that I’m looking at and realizing like, OK, he’s going to need me to step up and like take this seriously and actually do something about it. And so I’m trying to do that.

S1: So what’s changed for you so far during this whole quarantine situation?

S16: The logistics are. My husband is a college professor, and so he is now home for at least three weeks, his spring break was extended by a week and he’ll be teaching online for at least two weeks. But I expect it to go well beyond that. So that’s what we’re kind of adjusting to him being at home now. I have always worked from home, so that has not changed for me. But the real curveball is that my daughter, who’s four and a half and is in pre-school, is now home with us full time. So we’ve been trying to figure out how to split up childcare and work and home responsibilities and all that with with her home full time with us. So that’s where we are right now.

S8: This is Ruth talking. She’s another colleague. I still don’t have kids, so I can only imagine what it must be like for families with them right now. My brother is home with his wife and kids full time and I hear there’s all kinds of chaos over there. Even just having one partner around all the time who normally isn’t can be disorienting. But I like talking thruth because she’s pretty reassuring about all this.

S10: Yeah, I mean, I don’t have any kids. It sounds like like having my kids around would be great. Is that not the case? Is it different to have around all the time?

S17: It is great in some ways. It’s great to have like a little happy person who has no idea what’s going on and is like, thrilled to see you all the time. And it is. Yeah. Just a little like burst of cheerfulness in the room all the time. But she’s also in the room all the time. So it’s of course it is challenging. Like I can’t write and do childcare at the same time, I can do, you know, emails and responding to slack messages and stuff.

S16: But for the kind of intense concentration work, that part of my job is just impossible, at least for me to do with a child this age.

S13: So that’s sort of how you feel about your husband being around?

S17: No, no, that’s been really nice, actually. He he’s home a lot in the summers anyway because he is a professor. And so that’s his. His schedule is nine months teaching and then three months home. And so that’s something that we’ve kind of gotten used to over the years anyway. And also, we like each other. And so it’s nice to have, you know, in some ways it’s nice to have really the whole family around. And it’s nice to have him around, too. For sure.

S10: Yeah. No, this sounds kind of ideal. It’s sounds kind of nice to have someone to commiserate with while everything is rapidly changing around you.

S16: Yeah. I’ve also been trying to like not. Projekt, too much anxiety onto my daughter, you know, making sure that she washes her hands like first thing. Absolutely every time we come into the house and my husband’s been doing that, too. But then also not wanting her to feel like not wanting her to notice that things are different and that we’re scared. She’s been acting totally normal. And then like in the bath, she’ll play like we’re at the doctor’s office and we have to wash our hands because there’s germs everywhere. You know, it’s so kind of in her. It’s like creeping out in her play time. We only told her at all what was going on on Sunday night because she had been really excited about it was gonna be stuffed Animal Day at her school on Monday. Everyone would get to bring their special stuffed animal and kind of do a little show and tell and keep it with them all day in the way that they don’t usually get to. And, you know, Sunday morning she woke up and she’s like, tomorrow’s Animal Day. You know, we were kind of like, we have to like, it’s time, you know, for us to at least tell her a little bit what’s going on and that there isn’t gonna be school for a while and we don’t know how long. And so we talked to her together and tried not to make it sound like a big deal. And she, like, had no follow up questions. And, you know, so far the challenge has been more like not leaving the radio news on and kind of not having trying not to have scary conversations around her, because so far she hasn’t really picked up on it. And she’s not at the age where I think it makes sense to. You know, shake the news into her, you know, anything like that. I don’t think it makes sense to scare her. Her responsibility should be just kind of like washing her hands and. And that’s kind of it. So.

S10: So I’m not used at all to having to spend every day of the week with my partner. You sound like you have some experience with that, though. Do you have any advice for me? Something that I could keep in mind so that I don’t drive myself or my spouse crazy.

S18: Yeah, we do have experience with this.

S19: I was just talking to another colleague about this, how what works for us is this is a little bit easier said than done because we do live in a small town and we live in a house, but we mostly spend the workdays when we’re both working at home in different rooms, mostly because the rhythm. You know, if you’re kind of working intensely on something and then you get to a breaking point or, you know, a natural kind of pause and then you’re ready to chat. It’s like watercooler time for you. But, you know, that’s often not it’s impossible to synchronize those rhythms with just one other person in the room. And so, you know, that would be the points where we would start to annoy each other is like, wait, I’m in the zone. Like, I can’t be here, like watercooler moment right now. And so just trying to kind of not even try for that, really, but just to kind of spend the day somewhat separately within the home. And then, you know, treat the end of the day as the as the end of the day would normally be when you’d both be getting home and kind of catching up on your days.

S13: So could I ask you what’s changed for you and your family since having to self-quarantine?

S20: Sure. Yeah. I mean, so we don’t have daycare anymore, so we’re all home here every day.

S21: We’re on a week and a half of that. You know, so we don’t have any no activities outside the house. Last week we did some play dates, but now it feels like that is not an OK thing to do anymore. So we’re not doing that. And then also last week, we sort of did do some, you know, going going out to get meals or whatever. But that’s not a thing you can do in Seattle anymore.

S7: So, yeah, we’re just home. We go on walks.

S22: We try to get some work done. That’s about it. I think.

S1: This is Hannah. Her experience has been starker than most of ours. She’s in Seattle, which has the most serious outbreak in the country. She has a one year old. Both she and her husband work outside of the house, but now they’re home with no daycare.

S8: And she’s realizing some things about her and her husband.

S23: So, you know, there are certain logistics things that I do just because that’s how it works for our family, like I need the car every day. So normally I would be the one who does pick up and drop off. So that is a little uneven. But mostly things are pretty even. I don’t do a lot of chores. He does most of the chores. That’s really nice. So that is mostly. Yeah. Yeah. I’m pretty lucky.

S24: I wonder if you’d considered like what this whole pandemic has done to him. Like, how do you code? You describe that it’s affected him personally.

S25: I think, you know, let’s see how I consider it.

S26: Not a lot, really.

S27: I mean, I think, you know, he during lots of stressful times, he gets very focused on like what is just sort of in front of him. And so that is definitely happening. I would say there’s not a lot of like discussion of his how he’s feeling. He definitely seems to be, I think, a little taken aback by it. And how quickly things are happening. It’s definitely not something that he expected, you know, even just like.

S28: So right now we’re looking at like we expect schools to be closed through the end of April already. So that’s like another six weeks. And like even that time, it’s hard for me to see how we can make it like this that long. And so I don’t know what what.

S29: Not making it looks like like whether it just means we’re not happy or whether it means we have to do something really different or somebody has to some. I mean, it would probably be me. Somebody has to drop ours or I don’t know what that looks like. And if we do have to make that kind of change, what that means going forward.

S27: We have worked to have like an equal household, even if, you know, we’re not like I don’t I don’t make the same amount of money, so we’re not sort of equal in that way, but sort of trying to put equal emphasis on on each other’s careers and things like that. So if we had to make that kind of choice, I don’t know what happens after that. Yeah.

S24: I’m wondering if like your husband’s role in your life has changed at all throughout this whole pandemic.

S27: Well, let’s see. Like, he just goes through the steps of his day without any like. I mean, I think there are pauses, but I don’t see it like without any pauses to like go down like a Twitter rabbit hole about like covert testing rates. Right. It’s just sort of like this. You know, he wakes up. He doesn’t get stressed right away. Takes the dog out, gets breakfast ready. Like like if he’s on baby duty, but he needs to do work. And, you know, our son is upset. I mean, it’s not like he ignores him, but like it it doesn’t it doesn’t make him stop. Like he takes care of him. I’m not saying he doesn’t, but just sort of like he’s in a mode and he’s going to continue in that mode. And he’s just sort of like switch. So I think that’s not that’s not an. Like I said, I mean, that’s what he does when he when things get stressful, that’s how he deals with it, is to just sort of like get done what he needs to get done and not not think about it really.

S13: So I’m wondering if you guys have had any conversations at all about how to take care of your mental health?

S30: We did start some conversations sort of about like how I thought I needed more of like a pattern so that I could sort of like have some equilibrium, but it didn’t go it didn’t go that far.

S31: So I was like, oh, we should do it like this. We do this in the morning and then we do that.

S30: And then.

S31: But we just didn’t we didn’t get very far with it, I think, because he doesn’t find it useful for him to set that kind of structure up or to think through those kind of details.

S30: For me, I need to work at work these things out, you know, like I need to discuss like. What are the pros and cons of doing this this way and like, what will that? Will that be OK? Is that consequence all right? And to not have that to not have somebody who wants to do that or in lots of ways is is able to do that, are willing to do that is really hard for me. And it’s not like there’s anybody else we can involve in these discussions right now. Like we’re in our little bunker. We we run our little society by the rules we make. Right. So it’s hard to not have someone. To talk through those and the amount of detail that I would that I need to discuss them.

S1: It’s strange when two people have different coping mechanisms, you know.

S30: Yeah, we were joking about this when we were talking about how I would describe what we do. And so our son, he’s two. So he’s learning about like himself. A key exists as a person. So his new phrase is like, I will do it. And so that’s kind of how we were talking.

S29: That’s how how I feel when we have these discussions about like how should we arrange like how we manage to get this thing done or who’s going to take the baby during this time when we both have meetings. And, you know, instead of like I always want to go through, like the pros and cons of like, you know, this this is good for this way, but then I’ll be stressed or whatever.

S30: And, you know, his responses are. Is is literally like, I will do it. Like, I’ll just do it and like, we’ll go. And then I’ll be fine. And it is. But that’s not what I want. Right.

S32: I’m trying to find the silver lining in all of this, Adam, and I’m starting to wonder if it’s the fact that we’re going to have a lot more time to think about these things. Now that we’re we’re sort of forced to to spend time with each other in a way that we’ve never had to before.

S33: The only other time we spent six weeks together without work. Well, we have work. But you know what I mean? Like together together was when our child was born. So it’s definitely an experiment in how much can we be together and still keep it together. Right. And hopefully we can find joy in it. Right. At least some of the time.

S34: We’re going to take a quick break. Cigarette?

S1: So this is obviously a time where long term problems are coming to a head. But I’ve also been hearing about relationships that are still pretty fresh. They’re suddenly getting more serious, more intimate.

S8: Maybe before their time. I mean, are you supposed to isolate with someone you don’t even love with yet?

S35: I live in a studio apartment. It’s great for one person and I have a bird and I like I think with like a lot of people who do have pets, they’re very happy to be spending more time with their their animal of choice.

S8: This is Shasha and it’s not just her and her bird in her apartment.

S36: So my boyfriend is quarantining with me. He lost his job when all the bars closed this week. So he’s here. Most of the time. Like I am on this. He goes on Iran, which I don’t I don’t run. So I like don’t go out.

S37: You would think we’ve been discussing on this episode so far as how people’s panic modes are different. And especially when we’re like couples, it tends to sometimes clash. And I wonder, like, if you’ve noticed anything like about how you are kind of handling this crisis and how he’s handling the crisis.

S35: Yes. I’m a home body of sorts. I love going out. And I think I was going out like most nights of the week. It was kind of nice to have an excuse to cancel my plans and do more me time. And I think he, for the most part, agrees.

S36: But I think he’s realizing now that we’re kind of forced to stay in and not socialize. That he actually is much more of like he loves to go out a lot more, not even just to socialize, but he likes to walk around and like he he can’t sit still for very long. And I’m a very much like focused person. And I’m realizing like in our studio apartment when I’m just sitting still, he’s kind of buzzing around if he’s not reading a book. And I think he also would like to get out of the city, which to me seems a little scary because I don’t have any family in the U.S. So this is my home. Like my studio is my home. I can’t go back to France where my mother lives, because if I did, I don’t know when I’d be able to come back. And I’m fortunate enough to still have a job that I can do remotely. So I want to hang on to the things that I know as best as possible. And I think his name is Gordon. He has like much more of a fit family safety net than I do. He has family in Seattle. His brother is in Montreal and is another brother in L.A. And there’s a cabin that he really wants to go to in Canada. But I think as of today, they’re closing the borders for anything nonessential. So I feel like his restlessness and I can’t say that I share it, but I also feel like I may be impeding decisions that he’d be making. Were we not together, if that makes sense. I know that we don’t want to separate. At the same time, I asked him today, like, what would you do if we weren’t dating? Like, if we weren’t together? Like, what would where would you be right now? And his answer was like either in Canada at that cabin or with his family in Seattle.

S37: Yeah, I know. I know exactly what that’s like. My my wife initially really wanted to get on the first flight to Kentucky to go stay with her mom and her siblings. And I don’t know, I feel like I’m trapping her here with me.

S35: That’s exactly how I feel, too. Like this is my space. It’s my apartment. We’ve made a few changes. So, like, he has like his own chair to sit in and a place to put his books. But for the most part, it’s my stuff. And the idea of him being stuck here, if he could be doing something else that he would rather do. Makes me feel like not a great partner.

S36: You know, at the same time, I don’t want to be away from him. And I don’t think I mean, he doesn’t want to be away from me either. Separating. I don’t think it’s a good idea right now. We’ve agreed on at the same time, it’s like, I don’t know, we both have very different ideas of what quarantining I think would look like right now.

S37: There’s something weird that happens with couples. I’m sure you like that. Recognize this too. But once you shared trauma, then every thing just becomes a little bit simpler afterwards. I think you’re a little bit more empathetic to each other. Like do you see a relationship with with your partner as being like pre and post being distinctly different?

S36: Wow, that’s a great question.

S38: Well. I feel like a big part of being in a relationship, like a trusting relationship is, is that you can share your fears. And I think we’ve both shared our fears about what will happen next. And like what will we we as like a people, not just we as a couple look like in a year from now, for example, because I don’t think there’s really any light at the end of the tunnel at this moment. To me, that doesn’t really freak me out for my relationship because for me, like Gordon and I are, we’re like the one stable thing in my life besides like my job, which also like we could lose our jobs depending on how things go. But for the moment, I think my relationship is one of those like pillars in my life right now. Like I can support him while he doesn’t have a job at the same time, like he has family here, if we ever need to, like, leave New York. I don’t really see our relationship. I mean, yes, there’s going to be a lot of changes, but I don’t really see us. I think we’re gonna deal with it just fine. If that makes sense.

S39: It’s hard to know exactly what to do during this outbreak, but there are some people who had looked to their parents for answers and they went home to wait out the outbreak with them. What’s that been like? Like moving in back with your parents.

S40: I’m super neurotic.

S41: So coming from New York City, where there are already, you know, in other kind of cases, but like a hundred cases to Massachusetts. This part of Massachusetts where there weren’t really there are maybe like two at a hospital.

S40: My immediate thought was, oh, OK, I’m going to kill my parents.

S26: And that’s just in my head.

S42: So I’m taking all these tiny steps to try and control the situation. So, like, I don’t let them sit near me.

S41: They can’t touch my stuff. And probably that’s making things worse for everyone.

S8: This is clear she’s been focused on a different kind of relationship this past week.

S40: Her and her dad’s my dad is the best person to be her out in scenarios like this because he’s super calm, super rational, super level headed and I’m super fear-based. So we kind of have this ongoing straight man crazy man thing, which is just amplified.

S43: Yesterday my dad was saying.

S44: You know, this thing is a manageable just kind of expressing. Concerned or he was basically, you know, just venting the way the rest of us go. What’s going on? I’ve no idea. We were talking about the volume of death extrapolated for the US and he was basically just saying like several hundreds of thousands of people are going to die. Really crazy things to think about. And I. My brain was immediate, like. Oh, that’s awful. Make that number go away. And he was kind of, you know. Handling that number in and registering it in his own way. I really wanted to push it away and he was kind of like, no, you know, back some. That’s the reality of what it is. And I feel like usually his effort is to. Kind of finessed things so that they seem easier to digest. But in this case, there wasn’t really a palatable way of. Freezing now?

S10: Yes, I still have no idea how freaked out I need to be. Yeah, I know that I’ve been trying to at least act calm around my wife so I don’t freak her out. I wonder if you suspect that he might be doing the same.

S45: Yeah, definitely. But there does seem to be.

S43: Like that side of my family, my grandma as well, not just the males, love answers and certainty and, you know, always very quick to have a take on things and to interpret situations. And my dad, loving it right now doesn’t really have answers. And that feels weird for me because I think I always tend to defer to him. But right now, we’re just Tiley. The. The fact that there aren’t any answers now, even even for the man that usually blows all the facts.

S46: Does it make you feel?

S47: I mean, I think on a minute can minute level where, you know, I read something that I find alarming. How many people are going to die? And he doesn’t know or doesn’t have a way to make things seems manageable. That’s really freaky. But I think in a larger sense, the idea that we’re all just kind of suspended in the present because, you know, you can’t really look forward and looking back isn’t relevant. There’s something kind of not nice, but community building about that. Like I didn’t know. Like what? I had no intention to come live in Massachusetts for three months, probably, you know, ever again in my life. But now it’s happening. And for whatever reason, it’s kind of nice to be with them.

S1: After all these conversations, I realized there’s one more person I haven’t really talked too much about this. It’s the president I’ve been kicking out of the room so I can record these voice overs.

S48: Hey, Mr. Heyman. Hi. Hey, girl. Hey, how are you?

S49: I haven’t seen you in a long time. Yeah, we’ve been seeing a lot of each other. Yeah.

S50: So maybe you’d be a good. Arbiter for this whole conversation, like, could you tell me how I’ve been different throughout this whole pandemic?

S51: Yeah. So it’s not so much that you’ve changed. It’s more like parts of you are coming to the surface more.

S49: You’re like meticulous, analytic, critical. You’d like to plan, you like to fix problems like you complain. You’re also. Well, you. You keep it real.

S52: You’re an optimistic realist. That’s for sure.

S49: But you also. Ah, a bit of a hypochondriac, so like with this whole virus thing, like the earth that you really got into reading it, you’re like, I feel fine. Am I think. I mean, I’ve tried to give you a hug and you like, yeah, I give you my elbow.

S6: I’m sorry.

S8: I know we haven’t really had any kind of definitive conversation about how seriously we were going to take this threat and what we’re gonna do to prevent it. I don’t know. I’m just so tense and I’m so I feel so uneasy.

S50: Like things could be horrible and we still won’t be ready for it because there’s no way to prep for it.

S53: Or things could be not that bad or.

S39: Yeah. I don’t know. I should only be prepping for like the worst case scenario.

S53: Okay. So what does that look like?

S8: Like Mad Max, like we all saw wearing those BDM outfits, all other and we just start running around with bats with nails sticking out of them.

S54: And say things like for Valhalla.

S52: OK, so these are two completely different conversations.

S55: And this actually actually explains my point better than I could, because one conversation is what’s the worst thing that could happen? OK. Like, OK. You want to tell what the worst thing that could happen?

S52: You’ll die, OK?

S55: Or we could talk about what aren’t things that we can actually do to help protect ourselves from what could happen. OK. At this point, we’re already doing it.

S51: You know what I mean? Like, I feel like we balance each other out really well because I’m like mellow and I stay calm and like, that’s like one of my perks for me, unlike emergency situations that I can, like, stay calm so I can think clearly. But you being like vigilant and prepared and like ready for action helps me also be like ready when we need to and like to stay informed and to be alert.

S56: But like, I think my calmness, like, helps you to also, like, stay grounded and like, be OK with not doing anything but staying home. And this is turning into a really cute moment.

S57: Unlike falling in love with you all over again in the midst of this horrible pandemic, I just want to kiss you. I’ll stop for some. Thank you so much for listening. But we also want to know how the men in your life are changing right now. Are they showing you a different side of themselves? For better or worse? Or are you a man who’s been seeing things differently? What other stories should man up tell during this pandemic? Call us at 8 05 6 2 6 8 7 0 7. That’s 00 5 men up 0 7. Or you can always e-mail us at man up at Slate.com.

S58: And don’t forget to make sure you subscribe to because we’ve got new shows every week. And believe me, you do not want to miss out. Man Up is hosted and written by me. Aymond It’s mine. It’s produced by Cameron Drewes. Our editors are Jeffrey Bloomer and Lo and Lou.

S57: Gabriel Roth is the editorial director of Slate Podcasts and June Thomas is a senior managing producer of Slate podcasts. We’ll be back next week with more. Man up. Stay safe.