Friendship and Thirst (Featuring Aminatou Sow and Ann Friedman)

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S1: Stanley slowly ran the. Over a second time, closely following the movement with his eyes. Am I doing it right? He asked. I move my leg. How are you so good at that?

S2: I signed the first prize.

S3: All right. Love you, Stanley. Love you too much.

S4: Hi, Nicole.

S3: Hi, Bill. What was that voice? Do you know? Right. I’m trying to, you know, power through. It’s definitely a manic Monday. OK, I’ve got my red lipstick on to make. I say matching with your taupe. It’s very fancy. Thank you. I appreciate that. But you are in the closet with your tank on stuff just like that, right? Let me tell you something. Podcasting is serious business. You get very sweaty cause I’m a perpetually hot person. I was born in winter, but I think it’s the wrong time. Like I’m an accidental Scorpio. I should not be a winter child. I am so hot all the time slash so cold all the time. But at the wrong point of view. So I just realized. Are you a Valentine’s Day baby? Perhaps. It’s disgusting. I don’t want to think about it. Thank you so much. Anyway, back to the issue of the day. Yes.


S5: I’m sweaty in this closet that I recorded because New York housing is terrible. And so the apartment is large, but all the closets are this big, super tiny. So I just come in here and I swear it’s like my own version of ethical Bikram yoga. So I’m mostly naked every time we record. Like, I’m wearing as few clothes as possible. So you can imagine the challenge to keep decent for your eyes. But I’m excited this week because I actually I put on lip gloss today. Oh, yeah. I didn’t quite match your red lipstick energy, but I put on lip gloss today because other people are gonna be seeing my face today.


S3: Yes. Yes. I’m very excited. We have this ad this season has been just, I mean, full of magic. We’ve had Jason Matsoukas to begin the whole new run rate, Ray, which started incredible love affair between the two of you.

S6: You know what?

S5: We’d be grateful if you just respected our privacy. Oh, yeah. Thank you. Musson Rex. We’re just getting to know one another. We’re trying to understand how life works in a micro still way anyway. But like the second time I’m putting on lipstick, it’s because we also have two amazing guests this week to come in and talk everything from friendship into thirst, which, as we know, they are the same thing, essentially. It’s about the law of attraction of the two hosts I am talking about. Of course, I am Friedman and I’m united. So are you excited, Nicole?


S7: I am very excited. We’ve been trying to make this happen for a year, maybe, I think six years.

S3: I think when I was twelve and we’ve been trying ever since to kind of just like marries too difficult. It has been difficult. You know what? We are all busy and booked. OK. And it’s a blessing. Oh, I love a bit of it. Anyway, welcome to the show. And I’m not too. Hello.

S5: I can I just say the creepiest part of me always wants to see inside people’s homes, so. And you are rocking the closet studio today. Love the folded clothes behind you. Love the hanging shirt.

S3: Amazing. I’ve been naughty. You have a plant in your face. Love it. Nature giving me black while gardening loving.


S8: I feel really foolish that I did not wear a lipstick or a lip gloss, you know, because people were going to see my face. But I think it also just speaks to the level of comfort that I have that I mean, literally, we’re human. I am wearing my, like, summer. No one has ever seen this alpha not in my house before. So I just want you to know that where we are family now shield in rumors mode.


S3: That’s it. There will come a point. I don’t know when it’s gonna happen, but one day I’m gonna turn up to a recording in my closet and there will not even be Abrar insights. But that day is not today. Today I’m wearing a bra because I’m professional.


S8: But there will come a time when I will discuss with that because, fuck it, lifeSo Schlichtmann, who has no masters, no bras, no cause, no reason that I’m getting out of it.

S3: I literally. Wow. What for what? I said no masters that what done. You can take me back.

S8: So I have freedom. I have not Warner Bros. Since March 13th, March 12. I don’t regret it. It’s great. Great lifestyle choice.

S3: Lean into it. Lean in. It’s exactly what Miss Sandberg was talking about. It’s like I read the book cover to cover.

S5: I think she was saying take off your bra. So this is great. So this week, we are going to be talking to the pair of you about a number of things. Most importantly, your new book called Big Friendship. But in addition to all of that good stuff, we’re gonna be here for the primary purpose, which is, of course, first. And I’m really excited to kind of get into it. I feel like in many ways you get glimpses into people’s souls and a book is a very good way of doing that. But another really good way is to kind of be like, so how do you feel about X, this object? And you’ve sent us a list of people that you have strong feelings in your areas for, and I’m really excited for us to get into that. Nicole? It’s a good list, isn’t it?


S6: It’s a very good list and it features a lot of people that we have talked about. We wanted to talk about, you know, give them full episodes. We just haven’t made it yet to that point. But I’m really excited and also feature some people that we’ve talked about. But will, you know, always willing to talk about them some more.

S5: That’s right. At least one of them. I’m just kind of like, let’s let’s feature him every week. Like I’m here for it every single week anyway. So get you a glass of something refreshing and sweet if that’s your cup of tea. And then we’re going to settle in and get.


S9: All right.

S6: Are you ready to get into this discussion about we’ve got like three, four, five seven nine eleven, but I’m here for all of them. Let’s let’s talk about the first person on this list so I’m not super familiar with. So this is going to be an education for me. But we’re going to talk about Tuesday out of it. Pay for TV on the radio. Yes.

S3: All right. I’m going out to. Let’s begin. You are finding yourselves. I want to kind of get a set up.

S8: I first of all, TV on the radio was a really important band in my personal development as a younger person.


S10: And I still remember the first time I saw them live and Tunie was performing and it was so hot. First of all, black musicians all the way all the way here for. And so I would say that, like in the crowd of people, that usually goes to see, you know, an indie band in Austin, Texas, where I was in college was like predominantly white.


S11: And so my experience of going to these shows was always just like white people doing white music, things that sometimes are very good that I appreciate. But, you know, having like a really having like a block of presence onstage is something that I think for me was really transformative in the sense I was like, oh, I, I, I really was downplaying to myself how much it adds to my enjoyment of this band that there are black performers in it.


S8: And also he is truly a multi hyphenate, you know, like he’s a musician. He’s an actor. He’s in his indie movie called Rachel Getting Married. Yeah. It’s about but it’s the movie that turned that turned by like the movie that made me like Anne Hathaway. I think if it’s possible to have a movie that does not for you. For me. What a legacy. What a legacy you like a lot. A true legend. But in Rachel getting married, Tunie does a cover of Neil Young. I can’t even get the words out. I’m like sweating, just thinking about him. He is a handsome as humans. We like, you know, we like walk the Earth with. And he lives in Brooklyn. So occasionally I will see him around the neighborhood. I’m out in the streets. I know. And every time I’m about to run into a telephone pole, like, it’s so embarrassing that he’s definitely seen me drop my phone or hit my head or stare at him for too long with his family. And truly, I just want to say I am not just objectifying who you are physically as a person, even though I am. I just, like, enjoy thoroughly everything about this person’s, like, body of work.


S3: And I’m glad you added up work.

S8: I just I just I’m saying about because I think that for me, thirst is tied so much into intellectually how I feel about someone, you know. And so just being like, OK, I, I love the way you saying I like the choices that you make about art. I like how you talk about your work. And also you are so easy on the eyes. Are you kidding. He is so. He is so handsome.

S5: He’s a classically handsome. Like it’s just like a good it’s a good face. Like, you know, a good body in like a good setting. I’ve just got congrats. Like, well done. He should be sculpted. Yes.

S8: All right. I’m sweating. I’m sweating. I’m sorry. I never talk about people like this in public.

S12: And I want to be good. Facilitate this. I love this.

S3: And you were nodding enthusiastically through that. Do you have similar feelings inside of eBay?

S13: My thighs are quaking. Just talking about it. I have to say that I know you all talk about a lot of thirst objects who are actors. But there is something about being in the audience and watching this man perform his music that is like a very visceral experience. There is there is something that is a little bit different than, you know, watching a screen in front of you. You know, and I think one reason why he came to mind for both of us is that, like, we’ve both been in a very sweaty in person encounter. Granted, not like, you know, right up next to him, but like we’ve been in the same space. And there is something who really very powerful about that.


S6: Can you. Can you talk about his charisma on stage and what it is and what what makes him so captivating when he’s up there?

S13: Well, I think that for me, at least one reason why I loved TV on the radio as a band is there is a real range, you know, like there is a tenderness. But then there is also some, like, really kind of raw, like emotional stuff happening as well. And I think that being present for that range of emotion is. Yeah, is intoxicating. Like being able to see someone channel all of these different moods. And, you know, there is like there are stereotypes about like watching musicians perform and like their facial expressions being equated to what might be happening sexually. And one reason I know I am very attracted to this man is that’s not disgusting to me in this case.

S14: You know what I like? Like the stereotypical, like, guy with electric guitar. I’m just like, I don’t want to see it. Like, I don’t want to see what’s happening with your face right now. Like, no, but but this is. Yeah. This is a very welcome kind of glimpse, shall we say, into what might be happening offstage.

S3: Who made a cute little euphemistic? You wouldn’t know. You just said some real filth. He said that in polite way.

S8: I love words, people. You know, I’m just saying that his concentration face is very enticing. Wow. Wow. I like how you said that with your whole chest, chest, wall, chest. No bra.

S6: I have struggled with my attraction to musicians, particularly guitar players, because I’m like this. So fucking corny. That’s just ridiculous. No, don’t go there. So I understand what you’re saying when you’re like you’re trying not to, like, you know, fall into that trap, but sometimes you just have to. Got it. Like trip over that low wire.


S3: It’s a trap for a reason. Here’s the thing. Oh, I hate how strongly I feel about today.

S5: So years ago, I determined if I was ever going to get married lol I would not change my name like my name is mine. I’ve had it for this long. The MCO potential is Spoto and no one else has my name. Like I’m amazing. And I remember when I first saw him, I thought to myself because also my full name. My full first name is Evan Bayh. And I remember thinking I would change my name for you, like when I saw him and listen to him before when I was like, oh, I would be cold, I’d have been it and pay, like for you and you.

S3: That would become my legal name for you. And that’s what I thought to myself, oh, wow, you really fancy this guy? And I was like, oh, should I do? Oh, I’m going to have this stupid name because I fancy this guy. Oh, my God. But yes, that’s that’s that for me. Is the bar that so few clear. I’m just like, no, I love my name. Oh no, I changed for you. And I would be called the same name twice over for you, sir. Thank you.

S8: Bam. That is so Nigerian isn’t a Nigerian Nigerian. This I have heard on this very Nigerian day. Thank you.

S3: We thank you for seeing me as I am. I read your about all day, every day. And sometimes it comes out on my own. Yes. That was very much my feeling today. I mean, so he’s like you said, for all the reasons and I don’t want ever object to find that’s all we do here.


S5: We all about the full body of work. However, when I see him, I have like a fully visceral like I’m like, oh, shit, let’s let’s have a family.

S11: Let’s I mean, I want and I want to address the corny and ask that Nicole brought up because I do 100 percent agree with you. And I think that for me usually my like the issue I have with like really is sweating actors is that I’m like, there’s something so corny about this. You’re literally a performer and I’m not into it.

S8: But I think that in Tuesday’s case and in the case of a lot of, you know, famous ish people that I’m into, I think the way that I always justify it to myself is that they are, you know, like what you know, I’m like he’s an artist who happens to be a rockstar, you know, however you like, you justify it. So, I mean, he could be doing he could be doing anything. He could be doing anything. Could be a professor. Could be whatever. But I’m like he just happens to be so good at, like, being a musician. But he is allowing this band to let him be in it. And so it’s just, you know, I hear you, though, and I think that is the thing I struggle with a lot, so.

S6: Okay. So you’re both of your attraction to Tuesday with those. Did that happen individually or was it. Did someone bring the other person along once you became friends? Or how did that how does your crushes. How do your crushes on Tuesday, I guess, fit into your friendship?

S13: I would say that he is not a you know how there are some shared first objects that are just always ever present, like in the in the text thread or in the conversation? I would say and please correct me if I’m wrong. I mean, no, but I would say this is sort of more like, you know, two parallel lines that don’t intersect. We were both just appreciating in our own way, on our own time, rather than jointly having an appreciation in the way that we do for, say, a KION you, which we will get to. Right. Which doesn’t lessen it, you know. I mean, it’s really I think this is one that was born of us thinking about coming on this show. And it’s like. Mm hmm. Who have we have we individually thirsted after? And where do our lists align? And they and they weren’t in a lot of places.


S8: And this is today is one of them. Yeah. I think that you’re you’re absolutely correct about, you know, the tuna example, sweating, just saying, has they tuned out ever impaired. But I also I think that there is something so fun about realizing that your friend has, you know, like a similar similar, like, sexual vibe as you were just like, okay, great. You’re like, I’m into this hypothetical, you know, like weird famous, like first rap object.

S11: And to have that be confirmed by someone else and it’s not like a crush that you’ve developed together or it’s not like a person that you were, like, simultaneously lusting over. And then, you know, you’re just like kind of building up the the like. I like Anderson to this person, I think I could be into this person. There’s so much about that that is just so, such a fun part of friendship. And I think especially friendships between adults when you can just say, okay, great. Like, I really liked this band in college. You like this band, too. And it turns out that we both believe that this person is really smoking hot.

S13: It’s also kind of a way that I think, particularly in the early days of our friendship, we would we would we would tease each other, you know, like knowing each other’s, like, preferences or like, oh, like this this semi famous person is totally your type. Was like a way we developed a little bit of rapport with each other. And like, you know, have like some very funny long running jokes about like what type we are both attracted to, even if that’s not 100 percent rooted in reality. You know, like it is just like a fun sub narrative of this friendship.


S6: So Ben and I, we have a lot of, you know, similar thirst objects, you know, crushes, of course. But there’s always one person that likes this one guy more than the other. And, you know, the other person is willing to step back if we were ever to be in a bar and, you know, the fates aligned and that person showed up, they, you know, like for them, obviously with Jason Mizuki’s, I would step away and let her have her moments. You know, I’ve never loved you more. Who is that person? Are you other people? That is that for. For your. That you’re like. OK, I will bow down and let you have this person because that’s how much I love our friendship.

S13: I’m thinking about this.

S8: I would say for me, it’s all of them. It’s try all of them. If Keanu Reeves walked into a bar and he was like, who is that beautiful smart rider over there? And, you know, was like me and and I would step aside and be like, here she is. Her name is Ann Friedman. But I would do that about any of them because that is the fun of the hypothetical celebrity crush. You know, I think that, like, at least in that the way that the media works in in our friendship is not you know, it’s not that anyone has exclusive dibs on them. And I think that it’s so fun to, you know, it’s just so fun to me to to even, like, map out onto complete strangers.

S11: This weird, like, sexual fantasy. And I think that if I actually met any of those people in a context that was real, I would probably just like dissolve into the ground anyway. You know, like, none of it is real. And it not being real is what the fun is. And so I feel very confident in saying that, you know, I’m like and you can have any of these hypothetical celebrity crushes.


S13: Yeah, I can have the personal interaction and have my end be disappointed because I totally agree. But like, I just I assume that anyone who we are admiring from afar, once we kind of get up close and like, learn more about this person’s day to day and ins and outs. I’m sorry. I know this is not the point of your delightful podcast, but like, you know what? There’s there’s such a thing as knowing too much and Libya and the very much a part of the boat.

S3: I mean, that’s why we talk. We explore.

S6: Yeah. That’s what we try to avoid personal lives unless there’s like a police record attached to it. Because if, you know, we don’t want to see too much behind the curtain.

S5: Right. It’s ugly behind the curtain. It’s really disgusting. Like people pee that it’s not I don’t even want to. It’s like, you know what he’s like. You never see the main characters go to the bathroom. I’m like, perfect. I don’t want to consider. I don’t want to do any of that. I don’t want to know what you eat for dinner. I don’t I don’t care. Exactly as Nicole says, like, oh, you a bad person. It tickled me that, you know, doing that thing of writing a person’s name and kind of going. Problematic question mark. Men are terrible. And it’s a very complicated time to be fancying men. It’s bad. It’s a bad habit. It’s always about time. But it’s especially bad right now.

S13: It’s true. So I think that’s the other reason why the idea of stepping aside to let my dear friend, I mean, not to pursue her bubble bursting love with any of these individuals is something I would also be willing to do because, you know, I don’t know when it becomes real. A different set of questions.


S3: Yes. Yes, indeed. Yeah. I philosophical.

S8: That’s when it becomes real. We’re like, are you still gonna do that corny job you do every day? I can’t roll with that. I mean, think about quitting music for me. You should. Yeah. Mean like are you. Have you thought about never acting ever again. For me. Because that is the only way this is gonna work.

S3: And also being a househusband and pottery in the barn.

S8: I mean when I am when I am king. Men will only be allowed to cook inside the home. You know, I’m like, your domain is here.

S5: I signed up to this platform. I’m really ready to put some weight behind this. I’m. Whenever you’re ready, just let me know. I will be the street team. I think it’s time we move on to your next choice. Or on the today space object menu. I was pleased about this because we have discussed this particular first object with a couple other guests, but only very briefly. So I’m always happy to add to the discourse. I am, of course, talking about Peter Dinklage.

S8: Mm hmm. Yes. Yes. Oh, wow. A sigh of fuel lust. Tell me more. Have you seen that man in APC jeans? Excuse me. It’s so hot. So you’re on hands here. Oh, my God.

S13: Here is how I know that this man is on another plane for me, which is that in a large percentage of the images in his Google search results, he has a goatee. And I still am into it. Like I really like, you know, white goatee is a hard, hard thing. And like, I think that he is he is really there is something special going on in order to, like, make that work. And. Yeah. And I don’t know what it is. I really I’m the hair. I’m very into his hair.


S8: There’s like a floppy hair thing going on that I like the shore line. He hasn’t the strongest jawline, which to me I’m I’m a hands and Jaws girl. So the jawline is so strong. I love how he dresses and I think so, you know, I think that I’ve liked every single role he’s played. And that also is like a huge part of it for me, where I, you know, I like the choices that he makes as an actor. And so it makes it really easy when I’m scrolling the the, you know, the bad Daily Mail right hand column. And, you know, and I happened upon a picture of him and I was like, oh, yeah, I’m like this hottie. I’m into to it.

S6: I think he has beautiful eyes in the eye acting, which always gets me. It’s so it’s superb with him. Like he is incredible with pushing whatever emotion that he is supposed to be feeling out through his eyes. Yes. Oh my. Oh, he’s so good.

S5: He’s so charismatic as well. Like, oftentimes I think to myself, just kind of like if they gave this character no words, I’d be compelled by him anyway. And I want to go back to what I said about white man with a goatee, because thank you for speaking the gospel truth. We are truth tellers here on this broadcast. And every so often a co prophet enters the room and delivers just a clear line. And every time I see a white guy with a goatee, I’m always kind of like, but why?

S3: Why, why do that? But Peter Dinklage is kind of like, I guess. And that is exactly correct. It is testament to his power that I’m just kind of like it’s pretty bad. But, you know, it’s fine. What a good man. Regardless. Like, I’m still into this. That is that is high. That is high level boasting.


S13: Sometimes, you know, the level of your attraction by what you’re willing to forgive.

S3: Yes, yes. Yes. I think Peter Dinklage would have to grow white man locks. You’d have to get like restaurant dreadlocks. I mean, to kind of get. All right, I’m out. But everything up to that. I’m like, I can walk around it. And that says so much about the level of my food.

S8: You said the dreadlocks. Sounds like, you know, I would like to see it. Wow. So why should you want to. I want to. I want to see it before I make it. I want to see it before I make a determination. Obviously, I will not I will never lie with a white draw, with white dreads. But, you know, I’m just like I, I. It’s an interesting choice for him.

S3: I might forgive it. So I feel like he was close in what I thought. Was it a Thor movie. Adventure’s movie where he. I like how he plays. Yeah. Yeah. It makes like the the the the God killer when he makes. Yes. He came close. He didn’t quite cross the line. But that’s what gave me the idea of kind of what’s going on with your hair over there. I mean, I still would, but like what is going on. Right. I think about him and the role that I always point people.

S5: So he’s done a lot of good stuff, of course. But the role I always point to is the station agent. Yes. Yeah. First thing I saw him in and I was so drawn to, like the whole performers, the whole the whole film is really stellar. But he in an already very good film kind of stands out.


S13: I appreciate that. Yes. Agreed. Agreed. Deep, deep. Agree.

S5: Yeah. And we haven’t yet touched on this. But I have to point out the thing that is the biggest attraction to me. Yes. The jaw is great. Yes, the hair is great.

S15: His voice did spend some time with an absolutely glowing.

S8: The other day do and was every kind of filth down here except the kind. I like your sister. Yes. Yes, discuss. Carlos, this guy. Yeah. I mean, here’s the thing, a man with a bass in his voice is always the man. I am willing to hear, like, talk to me. And so, you know, that is everyone is superficial in their own way. But your girl off some base and the voice.

S6: He’s such a commanding presence. And like, he brings that voice and you’re just like, OK. Tell me everything, please. You know, I don’t know. Children today don’t know anything about the phone book. But read the phone book to me. I go.

S8: I love the idea of like a 15 year old listening to this podcast. Turning to their parents. The phone book.

S3: I’m like, why am I doing this for old people? And you’re like, Oh, Jesus, no. Not it’s Facebook for old people. But the phone book is even older, young sir.

S8: I will also confess that a thing that makes Peter Dinklage very attractive to me is that he is in this category of celebrity that three quarters of the time when the paparazzi catches him, he is in some sort of domestic scene where he is either like riding a bicycle with his child or he is pushing a stroller or he eats like him. Matthew Reese, there is like there is a celebrity like class of this where anytime they are photographed, you know, you’re just like, oh, family person. Like it’s never at a red carpet or like at that thing. And I’m either like, well, either you are. You just like you have my number and you know that. I mean, not you. Sarah would like to see men being fathers or, you know, like you are highly inconvenienced at this moment of your life. But there’s something about just seeing them in the everydayness of their life. That to me, is also really hot. Okay, great. Like you, like, clearly pick up your kids from school. You are like clearly like you are you are a present father. And I’m into this Hollywood person.


S13: This fits with your men back to the kitchen agenda.

S8: You know, I’m really seeing a clear through. 100 percent. I’m like, how can I. How can I keep a man in my house? And so I you know, I’m just I’m just looking out for those signs.

S5: You know, I said what I said before was Super Nigeria, and that was Super African abuse. It’s gonna be like, can he be put to walk?

S8: So let’s walk. Can he do the walk? I to.

S3: I believe that I feel like an idle man is a waste for everybody.

S5: One on life’s not to be chopping something. Be cleaning something. Be cooking something. Raise your children for God’s sake. And you’re right. I love seeing that too. That’s very much the focus of pretty much all. My fanfic is just kind of like, is he at home? Is he doing something useful for me, a woman kind in general that I’m into it?

S6: Well, speaking of men in the kitchen being domestic, let’s move on to. Oh, boy. I can’t even say his name. Stanley Tucci.

S12: My God, that’s huge.

S6: Wow. So corny. Had that energy just all the way. Put me on the countertop. Daddy Lythgoe.

S12: Look, I know that I.

S8: I know that I am into Stanley Tucci because I would watch The Devil Wears Prada. As a young person and was sweating profusely. I’m like, this is not the point of the role that he is currently. So the fact what that was like about energy was coming through for me. But, you know, it’s it’s the same thing with me. I’m like a man that is so frequently, you know, photographed in front of a pizza oven and also literally has literally, literally ha also wears jeans in a way that I really approve of, you know. And I like his, like, little domestic situation. And I was like, OK, your co-star set you up with her sister, who’s a woman with a real job. I am super into men like famous men who are married to civilian women who I think are smart. And so that is also part of her. It was like, OK, good. You, like, make good choices in life. Thank you.


S13: To take her to take a recent Stanley anecdote. Stanek d’hote, if you will.

S8: So you’re fired. You’re fired. You’re fired. You’re fired. You said my viral.

S13: Stanley Tucci shows you how to make a Negroni video. I feel feeling is my equivalent of yours seeing like Ben be good parents where I’m just like, oh, this is how I want to put you to work. I do want you to make me a cocktail on your back patio. And like, this is a role you could certainly fill for me.

S6: Where you gonna make me a negroni? Like, well, I would do great. Do you mind if I get my line? No, thanks.

S13: I have to hurry up and I’m back. All right. So anyway, I just. There’s something about that that really hit. Yeah. The way I want to be served by a beautiful man.

S8: Yes. I just also I like a bald man. Like, I think that men really who like really lean into their baldness instead of having insecurities about not having hair. Like I think it’s so hot because it just says to me that they’re confident. And I have always loved a man who is probably bald.

S11: So that is just, you know, I’m like ten out of ten. You are going straight into the spank bank. And that’s great.

S3: You just live there permanently. Like I have a dream. Oh, wow. That’s a very lofty sentence.

S12: But I have a Martin Luther Beam out here that one day I will meet Stanley Tucci and he will present me with a drink.

S5: We know the kind of you can hear the ice clinking in the glass and he’ll do it with his trademark twinkle in his eye. And he’ll be like, we had a we had a drink that nobody else knows. Like Stanley Tucci invites intimacy. I just. Everything about him to me is just kind of like this, knowing wise, deeply kind person that I am so drawn to. Again, I know this is all projecting. He has a corniest job, a life. He’s an actor, obviously, but I believe him like the part of the reason why he is so good in these roles where he’s a supportive dad or a supportive husband or a really wonderful friend or whatever. So much of that, I think, is down to the projection that he so effortlessly just kind of gives you. You think to yourself, huh? I think I can trust this guy. And I don’t feel that way about many people, let alone actors of all people. But I look at Stanley and I’m like, I bet I could tell you some of my insecurities and you wouldn’t go blabbing. Like we’d be able to talk about how, you know, how I’m feeling.


S8: He’s such a good actor. He has you fooled in your real life. That’s amazing.

S3: That’s skill. That’s talent. And that’s what I love.

S5: I could talk about Stanley Tucci all the livelong day. And I know that he’s got a new movie that apparently they finished. It’s him and it’s Colin Firth. And they play a long term couple. Oh, right. Yeah. I’m kind of like injected. Inject it and I’m ready. Put it inside my eyes like I want to see. I’m so ready. Oh, Firth.

S11: Colin Firth. A controversial first figure in my life. But yeah.

S5: Interesting. Interesting. Yeah. Colin Firth doesn’t rock my world, but he didn’t watch him as Mr. Darcy at an impressionable age.

S8: So that’s the problem. I watched him as Mr. Darcy and I felt Novich. And it’s when I knew that I was different from the other women I was friends with because he was like, You have bewitched me, body and soul. And everyone was melting into the couch. I’m like, Mr. Darcy is bad. Bring back Mr. Bingley. And I, you know, I’m just telling you, Mr. Darcy was kind of a gas lighter and I’m not into it.

S3: Okay, so end of interview. Thank you so much.

S12: My book is called Big Friendship. We borrowed an effortless Segway. Let’s talk about.

S3: Of all amazing salesmanship. That means that I think you have to pull that back. Tell us tell us a little bit about your book, Big Friendship, please.

S14: And so the book is a memoir of all of the men we’ve collectively thirsted. Gnomes getting the book first Chip.


S3: Think there’s a trap? Our next book can’t wait as long as they’re in the acknowledgements. I’m good.

S13: Yeah. So the book is a memoir about our more than decade long friendship. But really, it’s also about long term friendships in general. And we really wanted to elevate the kind of close friendship that we have to a place of prominence and importance that, you know, like a lot of people think only belongs to marriage or family. When we looked at our lives, we were like friends are in that kind of core, supportive, long term, deeply important category, too. And so the book is really about how to shift our expectations from friendship is the easy part of life where nothing ever goes wrong and nothing’s ever difficult to. Friendship is a relationship that, you know, with a little bit of luck, maybe. But like a lot of investment can can sustain you for the long term. So I don’t know if that is that’s the gist of it. There’s a lot of other twists and turns in there.

S5: What I like is that at the beginning of the book, you kind of lay out the difference, like why you went for a big friendship as a sort of monaca for the kind of relationship that you have. And you said BSF isn’t quite it, but this feels like it. Can you talk a little bit about the different tiers and why Big Friendship felt like the thing that you defined your friendship as?

S8: Yeah. You know, I think that in part of writing the book.

S11: And the reason that we chose to write it in one voice and not have duelling chapters or, you know, like my perspective and then Anne’s perspective is really that we were trying to come to a common truth about our friendship. But also we are trying to to find a language and vocabulary and labels for things that I think we all have a really good emotional feel for, but not necessarily, you know, like we don’t necessarily have a way of talking about it. And so and so you write like, you know, we write that like BSF and besty and best friend. There is something about that that I had used those labels. I have used them. I will continue to use them in my life. But there is something about them that just felt really easy and a little bit infantilizing. I have like friends that you make a camp or the friends that you meet in college and you know, we’re women in our mid 30s who will be women in our mid, you know, like one hundreds, hopefully one day, you know, we’re a little less. But there is just a way of speaking for myself, at least like I was really struggling with, you know, what is the what is the difference between a BFA for Besty and that tier and this relationship that I’m trying to talk about. The other thing that is true is that, you know, with BFI for best to your best friend, there is also an expectation that only one person fits that category in your life, you know, and and the kind of relationship and the kind of friendship that we’re talking about. I think that if people are are big and expansive and what their friendships look like, at least for me and and there are more than one people that fit that for us, you know, like Ann is my best friend. I have other best friends. And. And so finding a word or like some sort of category that really encompasses not. And I think that the idea that we’re really trying to get out is that in order for us to move as a society to a place where, you know, people really bring rom com energy to their friendships like we write about, it’s that we need to start having a bigger vocabulary and more precision about what it is that we’re talking about. And so the book really is an invitation to have a conversation about friendship. We lay out how we are doing our friendship. And and the part of the reason that we had to do it that way is because we didn’t really have guides, you know, no one else. I’m just so curious about how everyone else does friendship, because I think that the key to me being a better friend and a better person in my community in general really lies in figuring that out.


S7: Yeah. So what are the things that I appreciated about the book? Is the way that you talk about there is no real way for people to talk about friendship without using romantic language to explain it. And so you you you address that head on. You’re like, no, this was not anything romantic or sexual. It was just our friendship was immediate. And I know that I have definitely been one of those people when I read some of those personal essays in the last five years where I. A one woman is upset that her best friend now has a different life and has moved on, and she talks about it in such a way that I’m like, we are clearly in love with your best friend and just to come out and say that, you know. But now I’m seeing that obviously there are levels of friendship that I am not familiar with. Like, this kind of intimacy is foreign to me, which then has me rethinking all of my friendships in the way that I was taught that same sex friendships should be. So can you talk about that in, like, trying to figure out what’s the best language to use to describe an immediate friendship without confusing it for romance or sex?

S13: This is such a deep question. I mean, I we we did some interviews with experts who there are very few of them, but we did some interviews with experts who study this. And one thing that a researcher told us is that attraction is attraction is attraction. So, you know, if you and I meet and hit it off as friends, that underlying feeling is like kind of the same as when you meet someone and feel like a butterfly that maybe you later interpret as sexual. Like, the very initial feeling is is the same across all these things like that. I want to connect with someone further and then it’s really what we do without feeling that turns it into, oh, is this the beginning of a relationship or oh, do I want to sleep with this person or or do we want to be friends? And I think that that idea that it’s like all of these important relationships kind of have the same root. And then everything that happens later is determined by all these individual things is something that really spoke to us, but also a reason why we wanted to keep the lens focused on our friendship to kind of say, like, you know, as you say, not everyone has that experience of being in a friendship that is this kind of intimate and long running and really being able to kind of explore the ins and outs of ours. We’re hoping that other people can, you know, not not sort of say, oh, I need to have something like that. But to to more empower people who who already feel that to kind of see it through. And also just like who knows, I like presenting it as a possibility that, like, hey, you can meet someone and develop this kind of friendship that will sustain you in a way we’ve been taught only romantic relationships. Well, like maybe that will change things for people, too.


S7: So we are all content creators of some sorts. And you kind of talk about the dangers or the concerns that you had when you started the podcast, when you wrote about the theory and how that was exposing parts of your friendship to the world that maybe you didn’t really want out there. Can you talk also about how did you feel about monetizing your friendship basically and like the pressure to monetize your friendship? Because I feel like a lot of people have that right now in the same way that every interracial couples suddenly has a YouTube channel.

S6: Right. And their talk, they’re monetizing their interracial relationship and. And their babies.

S7: So can you talk about the boundaries that you have set up for yourselves in order to make sure we don’t have to share every single thing we’d have to make money about, you know, on every part of our relationship?

S16: Yeah. You know, it’s interesting even hearing you ask the question that way, because I think that when when Anne and I started doing this podcast with our friend Gina Del Vak, sorry, during your girlfriend’s six years ago, there was not really a model for a podcast is a thing that you monetize. You know, like I think that it it had truly not occurred to us that that was that was something that we could do or that we realize that that’s what we were unwittingly the road that we had, we were going down. And I think that you’re really touching on something that I have been I have been like thinking about a lot for myself and I think a lot about in this relationship that I have with and also about you start off doing something that you think is private and you open it up to the world and you don’t really think through all the implications. And some of that is being naive. But some of it is also that, you know, the world changes. When we went and wrote about China theory in 2012, 2013, she wrote for her column in New York magazine. And it will, you know, like her job as being a columnist, she every week has to come up with these, like, amazing ideas. I’m her number one reader. I want to read everything she writes. Sounds like great.


S11: Like a thing that is a thing that is in our friendship. You can write about publicly, if we had been, you know, the savvy people that we are in 2020, we would have probably sat down and said, oh, actually, you are sharing a private conversation that we’re having with the world. And so that means that.

S16: Our relationship is now exposed in a way that we might not really know how to deal with. And so I think that I really want to make the distinction between a thing that happens to people who were in media or media adjacent that unwittingly kind of became these public, you know, like content creators and this other very different job that exist now where you can just like from the back, like monetize whatever the thing is that you are doing right where you can be like, OK. Me and my me and my swirl relationship are going to start a YouTube channel.

S8: That’s things are. Thank you for bringing about. Because I’m obsessed with those YouTube channel. So we will exchange links later. So when I knew I had to let someone use my YouTube account the other day, I was burning with shame that they were seeing all of the. Right. So it’s like this is where research I. I’m an Internet person. Please don’t rush me. Anyway, back to get back to your question.

S16: I think that, you know, that is the experience that, you know, you two have and the experience that Ann and I have as people who get to do our job in public is not the same that, you know, most friends who don’t have a podcast together or don’t have, you know, don’t run a business together, do you not have. But I think that the pressure is the same. It’s like what happens to your relationship if you are not able to talk about in public things that you are struggling with privately or vice versa. Right. And I think that that is I think that is a very kind of modern conundrum and that we did not come at this at, you know, in this very calculated way. I think if we had, we would have made different and better choices, frankly. But it you know, it’s it’s a thing that people in media have to contend with. And, yeah, you know, and I think that we are still contending with not.


S5: Yeah. Like Nicole and I often chat about how it’s a weird thing, what people think, what they they think they know our friendship and they also think that we are friends like with them. And it’s a very it’s a very weird thing because podcasting in particular is such an intimate medium. And I think having people directly in you is and, you know, the cadence of this speech and how they laugh and what makes them laugh to it is to an extent anyway. I think it makes people kind of form a very kind of like strong bond. And oftentimes people will reply to Nicole and I saying something about us and would kind of like, that’s not true.

S3: Right. Yeah. Like, where did you get that from? And it’s kind of. Oh, because he said the book was about like, friend, we are we are very much performing on the book like it’s true. But we also they are such separate, like, you know. I find it really I tried not to. For example, on Twitter, I, I tried my best not to at people. When I’m replying, I just send them a text. Like if you my friend, you have my number Will next because you saw what in public and then strangers jump in and I’m like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. What do you do you think I want to jump into, like, friends? So now I’m going of. All right, we’ll remove the temptation because otherwise people kind of feel entitled to a certain slice of a kind of friendship.

S5: And it’s a very difficult thing where you’re kind of like this thing is us, but this is us in private. Like, it’s still us, but it’s also not fully us. And that’s like like you said, it’s a very modern conundrum of trying to figure out where those lines are and trying to kind of be like, what if I say this out loud? I might inadvertently selling something or putting something in a way that I don’t want to, because then it becomes a thing that, you know, people will literally sometimes email, oh, I saw your tweet to Nicole and I thought and I’m like, Wolf, OK, no, no, no, no, no, no. I should. And I should have texted her that. Oh, whatever. And that’s like like you said, as a constantly you’re always thinking about what’s the better way to do this so that I can keep doing my job. But also I have my friendship that is very important to me in a very different context outside of the job that we do together as well.


S7: And with your friendship, you talked about I really like the trap door, like that moment where you realize that the relationship is changing. There was this incident and the relationship kind of changed for you. And you talked about getting it back and going to counselling for the two of us friends. Can you talk about that, the experience of going to couples counselling as friends and how that has benefited you?

S13: I think many things happened within our friendship during a certain period where we were just missing each other again and again, like, you know, in some little ways, in some bigger ways. And it’s sort of like got to this point where we both felt like we were working on it or we both were feeling like we were making overtures and the other person was not receiving them or not reading them that way. And we we had this moment, this conversation where we were like, we need another adult in the room, like we need someone to interrupt, like the fact that we keep missing each other and someone to kind of force us to be in dialogue in a different way. And and it felt very weird and extravagant to say. We are going to therapy as friends. It was definitely a financial privilege to be able to do that. But I I think that, you know, we both we both just knew that we didn’t want to let the friendship end with without doing everything we could to fix it. And this was just something we hadn’t tried. But we wanted to try. And I I’m really I’m really grateful that we were both willing and able to show up and do it, because that’s the only the only reason we can sit here and have an honest conversation with you about it, frankly. Yeah.


S11: I mean, I, I agree with everything that Anna saying, you know, down to the like how just xtravaganza and and frankly, weird it feels to say, you know, I I’ve been in my own individual therapy forever and I can shout about that on every rooftop anytime someone says. So you went to therapy with your friend. I again, I’m like, who are you talking to?

S8: Me. I mean, it’s so weird, you know?

S11: And I think that back to the question that you asked about the trap door, which is this concept that we got from the writer and critic Wesley Morris, that is, you know, essentially like an incident that happens in interracial friendship.

S16: And in this case, like between a black person and a white person where you feel that the rug is pulled out from under you, it’s never something really dramatic.

S8: It really isn’t like, oh, yeah, there’s there’s a white person and there’s a black person, this friendship. And we are experiencing life in very different ways.

S16: You know, we write about that a lot because unlike a lot of other conflicts that can happen in in in any kind of relationship, race is always happening in the world.

S11: You know, like it is a threat that does not have to come from within your relationship. It just exists.

S17: There are we live in a world that is structurally racist and there is no matter of me and and being people who are able to talk about in a race when it happens on the news or we are able to talk about structural racism when it happens at work or when and sees that it doesn’t mean that race is not something that can cause pain in our own friendship. And I think that that was like one way that we had been really just missing each other and was also something that even years into our friendship, we had not been able to talk about. And, you know, and and talking about it really is not like, hi, how is my friend? You know, I’m like, I’m not in the plot of get out and is not some sort of like a you know, it’s not just trying to have eyes.


S8: Yeah, she’s not. Allison Williams in the scenario.

S11: But there is like there is the truth of just like it is hard and it is painful to live in a white world and to be intimate with white people like that is something that is just it is true no matter who your white person that you are intimate with is. Right. And so I think that I I’m really glad that we were able to write about it in the book because it really manifests itself in these like small and quiet ways as opposed to like the big you know, I was like, if your friend is like shows up at a KKK rally, great. You could just cut them out of your life. I was like, that is beautiful. I was like, we don’t even need to talk about this. But if it is like a smaller incident that really forces both of you to re-examine, like, oh, this is actually present in our friendship. And funny enough, we’ve been friends for many, many years and we’ve never actually talked about racism between the two of us. That is like a very different dance to have. And I think that it really required for both of us to be to be flexible and to be nimble.

S17: And also, you know, the truth is that racism is always going to exist and our friendship and in the world. And how do we actually how are we going to deal with that? And I think that, you know, it it was like really rewarding to talk to other people who really understand this dynamic and, you know, and to put it part of that and to make it part of a conversation that you have about friendship, because friendship really is a site of politics. Yeah.


S5: And that is actually a fantastic. Full circle, because friendship like this is about. It’s about.

S12: It’s about politics. It’s about.

S5: It’s about sort of showing up and fundamentally about communication. I feel like people often kind of think desire is just like, oh, here’s a thing that I am doing. And it’s I know something that you are participating in, like you have to. There are so many levels to it. And if you engage with one or the other, it’s to the detriment of what you are talking about. So it’s kind of like sometimes you don’t want to think about it. And essentially what’s at stake is trying to do is kind of like, no, you should be thinking about it. Why why are these why are these the options? Why is it that we have adult fancy quality people like musicians and actors? Let’s think about how do we kind of carve out space to make it make sense? And I think that is essentially that’s what I like about the book, is like this idea of kind of like all your life, you were told that you meet someone, you gel and that’s it. You sit and it’s kind of. Actually, it’s so much more complex, and just because we don’t have terms to talk about it doesn’t mean it’s not there. And I, I say this as someone who moved around a lot as a child. I know. I mean, I see you also have like lived all over the place. And I often wonder about my ability to form friendships as an adult because I never understood that I could do that until somewhere in my mid 20s many years ago. And like some of my best friends, people in that tier now are people that I met within the last 10, 15 years in a way that I never thought would be possible. And Nicole is one of those people where we were. So, you know, we became friends and we were like, hey, should be gone.


S3: Let’s do that. And that became this thing.

S5: And I just love this idea of friendship kind of spilling out in all these different ways. But essentially, it’s fundamentally this thing of like this person. And I could have something and that’s like I was going to explore this or we are like this. And part of that is having to kind of essentially show up and do the work that makes your friendship keep going.

S6: Yes. So I want to ask you to let’s say you’re in your 80s, right. And you’re going to a get together and a villa somewhere. What does that look like for you? Like what will you like to see those beautiful golden years look like for your friendship?

S12: We have not seen my doctor wearing bras that’s for 24/7 kaftan heaven.

S14: I don’t know. I mean, look, Stanley Tucci is making us our cocktail is Peter Dinklage is grooming his goatee nearby like we are. We are we are brought and on from way very comfortable lounge chairs with a stack of books like I don’t know.

S13: And that’s just for starters. Love. It’s what a vision.

S8: I mean, I’m definitely wearing this exact same. That is that’s a fact. I you know, I’m so glad you’re asking this question, because for me, it’s such a barometer of, like, the longevity of friendships. Like, I don’t I don’t have a fantasy in which I’m like I’m 85 years old and my spouse is there or whatever.

S11: I just like never grew up having that fantasy. But the fantasy of I am eighty five years old, you know, like I’m at some nursing home somewhere because my children are ungrateful.


S8: Throw me out on the street. But you know, I like the person, the people that I always think about at the like that I want at the end of my life. Those people have always been my friends, you know. And so I think that I like that is just what friendship is.

S11: It’s like a series of reassurances that you will be there tomorrow. You’ll be there next week. You’ll be there the next year. And, you know, and for all of us, I want that. I was like, I want to be in our 80s and we were wearing flowing caftans, but really I just want to be there and we’re there together, you know, because that is the real that is the real test and that is the real victory.

S16: And I’m just really I feel really lucky that that is something that I am now. I have come to understand it’s going to take a lot of work and it’s going to take a lot of communication. And it means that I can start doing that now.

S5: That’s lovely. It’s beautiful, but it’s the perfect place to end this at another Nazi. Where can we find you on the Internet and other places?

S8: You can find me a Peter Dinklage whose house sometimes I live up to the idea being Pei’s house. I have a timeshare on it. Yeah, I’m sitting on Matthew Reeses stoop about Sarah Paulson. Well, let me stay in her house now. Am I’m just like naming all the people I have crushes on. You can find us a bigger friendship dot com where everything big friendship lives.

S13: And you can listen to our podcast. Call your girlfriend in whatever app you use to listen to this very podcast, actually. Yeah.


S3: What a lovely conversation that was left to friends.

S5: I’ve forgotten the joy of close friendship when it’s being discussed as not just like a thing that happens, but a thing that you actively work at.

S18: Right. And that was something that, you know, reading the book and talking to them, I realize that maybe that’s just something that I had overlooked, like how much work goes into a committed friendship and, you know, examining the way that we talk about friendships in order to I hate to say it, but to normalize that there is intimacy between friends. Yes.

S5: Yeah. I’m the kind of intimacy that perhaps isn’t necessarily always explored in culture, like it’s not necessarily on TV or in films. But like, I really I feel like there’s been a an of centralizing of like what female friendship looks like. And you have to be sitting in the bath, holding your friend’s hand, eating a cupcake while they talk about their abortion.

S3: It has to be. And it’s like, oh, oh, there were all these other ways to get, I think, a lot about our friendship and how we met online and then met in person.

S5: And in a weird way, like it was just a continuation. But I also think that we didn’t name the work that we were doing, but it was there and talking with I mean, not to an end today, it’s just kind of like, oh, yeah, sometimes you don’t add you don’t you don’t you don’t say what it is, but it’s there.

S18: Right. And I just really appreciated the idea of doing away with ranking friends then, you know, this is my best friend and this one’s my bestie in life. I just want everybody to be my good friends. You know, lately, you know, the people in my circle were just all good friends and on different levels, me on two levels.

S5: But also like, you know, like I was saying at the end of my life, like, I see myself surrounded by so many friends. And that to me feels like the core of that whole book and the core of their friendship and hopefully the core of many friendships. I mean, one of my favorite things is hearing people talk about how they listen to the show with their best D or their friends or their big friendship person or the whomever is like, yes, correct. Because guess well, it’s me and my friend making a podcast. So actually it should be received by friends, you know what I mean?

S18: Yes, exactly. I love that. Oh, I love that. Yeah. Thank you. I’m Anatsui. So and Ed Freeman for coming on the show and talking to us about their podcast. Call Your Girlfriend, which I hope everyone has already subscribed to. If not, get on that. Make sure you check out their book that’s out now called Big Friendship How We Keep Each Other Close.

S5: You can find out more about big friendship at Big Friendship dot com. And the book also has its own Twitter, which is very fancy at Big Underscore Friendship.

S15: First aid kit is a slick production produced by Sherbets that had it with me and Nicole Perkins. I’m using my time. You can follow the show on Twitter at 3rd Circuit. Plus, we’re on Tumblr at Thursday, kit podcast, Tumblr dot com. You can send us questions there and we’ll try our best to get to it. But sometimes you just can’t. If you love, tweet your listeners, please use the hashtag tankful. That’s T AKP. And please also feel free to send us e-mails about how much you love us. Just make sure you send. That’s two thirty eight kids at Slate dot com. You can also make use of our Somalia service. Just send us a short and we mean short, short, short voice. Note the e-mail once again that addresses Thursday at Slate dot com. We’ll be back next week. Possessed responsibly, but also just be responsible. That means wear your mask. Wash your hands. Good citizen.

S19: Hybrid. First aid kit plus people. Hello.

S3: It always feels like we’re like, you know, in a little window at like a speakeasy. What’s the password? Yes. Every time we start this segment, I’m like, Woo! Here comes the special. This of the exclusive members. Exactly. Look at you. The exclusive cape or whatever. The exclusive club they call. I’m excited about this week’s plus segment. Why? I think you know why. It’s because we are going to be talking to you.

S20: Like, I feel very honored that I get to kind of be this fake, serious journalist. Nicole Perkinson, welcome to the show. We’re here to discuss your work, basically prepping for the Q&A where your novel comes about.

S3: I mean, come on. But this week, we are gonna be talking about your Drabble method. All right. Yes. Because we did a version of this where you asked me about the content of my fanfic that we do for the show. Right. We talked about your addiction to domesticity. All right. Wildly aggressive. I did not ask to be called out like that, but fine. An addiction is fine. Half the problem is admitting it. And I admit it. There’s nothing wrong with addiction. No, no. I said I could hear a lot of judgment in that. Let’s talk about your addiction to domestic city. Yeah, basically, I think I’m projecting I think I’m the one doing the projects. And yet, anyway, this week we’re going to talk a little bit about some of the things that crop up again and again and again in your travels. Let’s start with the big one. Nicole, why are men always on their knees and you’re driving literally and figuratively?

S18: Because I believe I should be worshipped and I sorry. I’ll share with you what I want to be treated with care and honor. And I want, you know, the men in my life, even if they are a figment of my imagination, I want them to recognize that they are in an honored position, literally and figuratively.

S21: And I love it. But I also just like what men do when they’re down there on their knees.

S3: So I do what I’m going to incorporate in every way. But I I’m still always taken about.

S20: I want to focus on a couple of things that you said just then, care and honor, I think for many people I know, you know, I think I’ve contributed to this. I think a lot of people kind of know that. Nicole writes the sexy grapples. Right? Like, so emphasis on on sex, like even though we don’t write any kind of explicit erotica ever in our face, which is always interesting, what people call us, an erotic podcast’s, but that’s a story for another length. But I feel like a lot of your stories and I think my reaction to them is always kind of like a little bit over the top. But I mean, they are also very true. Like we do a thing where we don’t listen. We don’t read each other’s travels beforehand. So it is often a shock. And so when I do my Weisburd bitch, it’s coming from my gut like I feel it. And you are very good at evoking kind of, I suppose, the prelude to the sexy bit. So can you talk a little bit about why there is this feature of expectation and I suppose a building up like what is the pleasure of writing that into your travels?

S18: You know, it takes a lot for me to warm up and not just in a sexual sense.

S12: All right.

S3: Well, all right. I feel like, you know, like a therapist. Tell me.

S18: But, you know, it’s not just in a sexual sense, but just in general to people, you know, like I always make really bad first impressions, or at least I think that I do. And I’ve had people tell me that. So I make a bad first impression because I am not overly warm immediately, you know, and a lot of people expect you to be. And maybe that’s a gender thing. I don’t know. I don’t want to say that. But they expect you to immediately greet strangers as friends are to be, you know, very kind to strangers all the time. And I as an introvert, a person, when I meet somebody new, I kind of want to take my time and assess them and figure out what’s going on.

S22: And I do know that there are some times when you have an immediate connection with people. And I do allow for that sometimes to happen in my writing.

S18: But just for me, it takes me a minute to get to a place where I feel comfortable.

S22: Like when we go back to the Jake Gyllenhaal travel that people the one that people write in about.

S3: Yes. What a classic. What a classic.

S22: That was something where I was admitting I need a bit more time to get to a point where I feel comfortable with this intimate act of kissing, you know? And so I don’t always feel comfortable admitting that to my partners sometimes that I need a bit more. But the thing is, like, if you do take the time, if you are a patient and you, you know, get to know me and get to know what works for me and not just a female body, you know, you will be rewarded.

S3: And so we are speaking of rewards.

S20: I want us to get to the Charlie Cox strap because in addition to the Jake Gyllenhaal, we get a lot of people just metaphorically finding themselves when they talk about, oh, my God, Nicole’s Charlie Cox travel. Yes. Let’s talk a little bit about that, Drabble, because it’s interesting, because we we basically did a an episode featuring Charlie Cox. And then however, many months later, we then had him in the studio. And you said afterwards, like, oh, my God, I’m so glad I wrote that trouble before we ever met him, because it would have been too much.

S18: Yes. OK. So that Drabble is about Charlie coming home from a bad day on set and he needed some stress relief. He needed to feel good about himself and be the best way for him to feel good about himself was to provide me pleasure. Wow.

S3: First of all, I just I 100 percent adore your sense of, I suppose, ability that you kind of want to make him feel good. Oh, I know. Like, I know we are doing some wild projects, you know, rambles. But that detail always struck me as like man Nicholas Comfort. Oh, I know how to make your day better. And it just makes me so happy because I’m like, you know what? No, you’re worth. No, you know what I mean. OK. I try to keep it.

S21: You know, it’s not necessarily P.G. Keen. I’m trying not to go NC 17, but. I don’t know what could be in the middle there.

S18: But basically, you know, there are some people out there who feel good when they have made other people feel good. Right. Yes. OK. So so, you know, it has been my. Periods that there are some men who are just like my day would be made if you just sat on my face. And that’s just.

S20: Well, I mean, you said not NC 17 and yet. But that has been that’s our destination point. So. Okay.

S18: I just you know, I just work that into my Drabble.

S5: And I just wanted to represent that niche of the of the. Yes. Yeah. Wow. You’re such a social scientist. I appreciate your work in the field.

S18: And when I you know, I talk about care and honor because it’s not enough to say that you care about something because you can care about your favorite stuffed teddy from your childhood and you will put it on your bookshelf and then you go away and you don’t do anything else to it. But if you want to honor the memory of that stuff, teddy bear on your show, you still dust it. You know, you make sure that if not covered by anything else that you put on your shelf, that kind of thing. So. Right, if you want to care about me, if not just making me happy, but it’s also about showing other people that you like to make me happy. So I think that’s something else that comes across in my travels when I do take it to public spaces. There has to be a recognition that I am with the person that I am with. So honor me by recognizing who I am in your life in public and then honor me by recognizing what I do to you when we are at home.

S20: Right. And I think that’s the thing that I like actually the best about the the Jake Gyllenhaal Drabble is that it begins with a place that doesn’t feel like it’s going to be like this super sexy story. And that, again, as we point out, our fanfic is not necessarily meant to kind of just evoke the idea of sexiness. It’s a number of things. It’s it’s, as we say, over and over, it’s a projection of how we see the first objects and the things that we want. We talk a lot about how fanfic is essentially a sort of map. If only straight men cared to read and see what straight women were into. It would be so much easier to understand a bunch of stuff. But I love that Jake Gyllenhaal one, because it starts off with you saying this line. I don’t like kissing and instantly as a as a listener. I was like, whoa. All right. Lean into this story, you know what I mean? And I just again, this this is one of the stories where you’re both at home, right? Well, at this point, you and Jake on his sofa and there’s a line in there that makes me feel like when I read that, I was like, oh, my God, Karen. No. Yes. Is what he says. He confesses, I’ve been waiting a while to kiss you, but I can wait as long as you need me to. That was the point I which I reached over and grabbed a cigarette shakily inhales and exhales like speech because it just says a lot of it says a lot of it’s just it says a lot. Okay. It’s the thing about putting the ball. No pun intended. Very firmly in your corner. I’m just kind of like, what do you need? What do you want? And I think in that regard, our troubles kind of come down to essentially, as we said, the purpose of a lot of think I read is kind of like, you know, if you think about it in terms of so many of the stories that are on TV, somehow leave behind the things that we know would make the current Tibetan like we’re looking at what kind of man I would write so much better. I think is a sort of way of bridging that gap. And I think in many ways, your fixed kind of like really point to the things that you hold important you hold dear. I would like to see replicated in your real life in a way that kind of to me, that’s Mulgan. Our conversations of which we have so many on this on this show is the Drabble, I think kind of really gives us a very direct access to the core of you. And I think our listeners really pick up on that and they respond to it.

S18: Yeah, maybe so.

S22: I think I also want to write a world where women can be vulnerable. And it’s not something that’s thrown back into their faces, you know? And so in that Jake Drabble, even in the Chris Evans Drabble. Right.

S20: I don’t get it because the closing lines of that one is I think I’m going to write a whole film called Make Me Late, because if you want to be like a real like, you know, year 11 reading comprehension doesn’t make me late refers to time, but on a deep psychotherapies level, make me lay visually talking about late like they talk about in the romance novels.

S18: Oh, what am I gonna get anyway, Harry? So I just feel like when someone is being vulnerable with their partner. There needs to be recognition of that. And again, I don’t want to say an honor. But again, just kind of like holding that in a special place for both of the people, you know. And so in that Drabble with Jake, he respected what I was telling him. He understood that was like a very, you know, who wants to hear that? You don’t like kissing, you know, I mean, like it’s like, oh, why are we here? Right. Right. Because anytime I’ve said I have weird a weird thing about kissing, I am immediately greeted. It doesn’t matter who I tell. It could be a friend. It could be somebody I’m actually trying to kiss on the mouth.

S21: It could be, you know, whoever. The immediate response is like, what was wrong with you? Why? You know, and they say, well, maybe there’s some shit going on, you know.

S18: So in their travel. He heard what I had to say. He processed it. And his immediate reaction was, I’m there with you. What do you need? And how how can we proceed? Because I do want this from you. And I want to. I want to take whatever you allow me to have. And I’m just. You know, I’m not going to say that has never happened to me before. I will say that, you know, there have been some men who have been very understanding and I don’t want to pay.

S3: I don’t want to make it seem like, you know, all men are terrible, but, you know, not alone and not all men. It turns out like the vast majority. Right.

S18: So there have been some men who have just been very understanding. And I think if we see that more or at least. I don’t know. I do want to say we see that more because I feel like women do this a lot anyway. But maybe somebody out there will hear it and understand, huh? Maybe my reaction when someone tells me that they’re uncomfortable with this particular form of intimacy, maybe my reaction won’t be, that’s fucked up. What’s wrong with you? Maybe it ought to be. Well, if I take this slowly enough, I can get to the promised land of your kisses, you know, that kind of thing.

S3: So she’s a poet. Ladies and gentlemen.

S18: And so even with the Chris Evans Drabble. Right. So my character confessed that I was being very anxious about something. And he took that information that he knew before I even made that confession and showed me that he had been paying attention. He showed that he knew my love languages and all of that kind of stuff. And he he showed me that he was gonna be there for me. And I was like, yes, in your reward.

S3: Chris is like the Christie that Ravel did a thing that I, I love about when I remember he brought out a jar of fucking Coco book. Yes. And they believe I can’t remember. But I think what you read that in the studio. I think I threw my head back and I catcalled because I was like, no, she didn’t.

S20: And then he got you, like some water. He got you some snacks. And then he also got you like a book of photography about prints.

S3: Yeah. Yeah. And I thought to was wow. She has really gone into the laboratory and just thrown in all of her favorite thing. This is the sound of music, like whiskers on kittens. It’s like, oh, I know what else she’s gonna throw at.

S20: I love that double because again, it’s like this idea of vulnerability and yes, this idea, again, a reward in doing so, like you’re not just doing it’s like, you know, just listening because you have to answer questions on an exam. You’re listening because listening helps you get to be with the person in a fuller way. And it just so happens that more often than not, your character in these troubles is someone who really appreciates a man slowly sinking to his knees. And the screen tastefully fading to black.

S3: Yes.

S20: And as a listener of all of your troubles, I am always in awe of the very wonderful way that you I feel like some people listen to your troubles and think, oh, Nicole does the sexy stories mine. And that’s fair because there is obviously more explicit, kind of like, you know, oh, we’re doing it often. Your. But I also think that what people sometimes miss is all the smaller acts of vulnerability that you kind of like thread through all your stories, which is essentially a person opening up to another person. And it’s different too. I think what I’m doing where I’m kind of like, uh, talking about an established comfort in a lot of the time, but I just really love the way that you do that. And I always feel like, oh, wow, I’m such a funny guy, even as I’m listening. I keep thinking my other listeners was having such a treat, but like I’m here and I’m also always makes me smile.

S18: Thank you. I you know, I. Yeah, being. Being vulnerable takes a lot for me, but I’ve seen the struggle on your sides of those where I’m like, man, this is eating her up.

S3: She does not want to be out here like it is. You like a sniper. You always want to be at higher levels than you can see the lay of the land.

S18: Yeah, because, you know, I’ve been burned so much because I used to be a very, like, open, you know, more outwardly sweet person. And so I’ve had to close a lot of that off. And so it’s always interesting when people are like, oh, Nicole is really nice.

S21: And they’re surprised. They go, fuck you.

S3: It’s not their fault if you have resting bitch face. I really do. I really do. I know that a number of times I have said something and your instant things are like, do I need to get a knife? And I’m like, Nicole, come on. No. Like, for real. I do. We it.

S18: But, you know, it’s just like I don’t have like a large circle of friends, you know, like I have a very small circle of friends. And that’s because I’m like, you will get the very special parts of me. And I not everybody should have that. And even though I’m very into hook ups and I, I you know, I’m like, no, he’s just here to serve one specific need. I would I love, though it is a deep and abundant kind of love.

S3: And it’s also a little I’ve been hearing that I’m like, oh, is that Philabundance?

S18: And it just goes to a totally different place, you know? And so, yeah. So when I’m writing these travels, I like to, I guess, show the parts of myself that people maybe don’t necessarily expect. They just think, oh, there’s the sex, but they don’t see that there is, you know. And actually very soft, sweet person who likes to take care of people.

S20: Well, Nicole, thanks for taking the time to explain. Today’s show was brought to you by the letter V for vulnerability.

S3: Oh, I thought you were gonna say a giant bitch. No, no, no. You just ruined a say a sweet thing by saying a vagina. All right. Well, that’s taken away that sweetness limousine. Yeah. I’m have to do you because I can’t tell. I can’t deal with. I know when it’s fucking annoying. I was trying to be deeply since I was going to and I’m kind of like that. Listeners. Is the valley. Are you like. No. But Jane. And I’m a car. That’s it. That’s the end of that, you know. Like I want to. All right. I don’t know what to do with compliments. So I just have to let you know. Yes. Hang on. I’ll tell you what you do. You ruin them. So good for me. Thanks so much. I appreciate the sentiment. Thank you. Oh, I’m sure you fucked to show.