How Do I Look?

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S1: This ad free podcast is part of your Slate plus membership.

S2: Lucky you.

S1: Hello and welcome back to Big Mood, The Mood with Danny Revery, I am your host, Daniel Avari, and I am especially excited to introduce my guest today. And you may know her best as Dr. Beverley Crusher from Star Trek The Next Generation. She’s also a choreographer and a puppet master and host of Nacelle Cast Studio’s new podcast, Gates McFadden investigates. Who do you think you are? Welcome to Gates.

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S2: Oh, hi, Danny.

S1: I just am so thrilled to have you on the show, not least because I recently watched Labyrinth for the first time in L.A. and recently ish before that had a chance to see an old friend who was also a graduate of the Jacques Lecoq school of I don’t know how to put it. Like clowning is not quite right. No, no.

S2: It’s movements not run in theater. I call me theater, you know, and also it’s more than that. Yeah, he really was a genius. But we’ll talk about that later, I hope, because

S1: I’m so excited. I was mesmerized. She had these, like, specific movements that she had to go through in these specific orders. And like, at one point, I really thought she was going to jump behind an invisible wall. It was it was some of the most striking series of movements I’ve ever seen. So I’m very excited to hear more about, oh, I’d love to start by advising some strangers. I think that’s always a great way to get to know somebody. For the first time. This one has really been sitting with this is just somebody with a lot of concerns about the women in his life. And I wonder if we can’t help him be a little bit less concerned. The subject is I miss my wife’s face. My wife and I have been married for nearly twenty five years, and we’re both in our late 40s in the last few years, many of her friends have started getting plastic surgery or Botox and face fillers. I was a bit surprised when my wife expressed interest, but felt it’s her face and her prerogative. Occasional Botox injections, which in my opinion didn’t look great. I have now graduated to regular fillers. I hate it. My wife doesn’t look younger. She looks like she’s had work done. She’s thrilled with how she looks. And any gentle comment I’ve made is met with the accusation that I’m focusing on her appearance and not supporting her freedom to make choices. Basically, that I’m antifeminist. I loved her face when it moved. I don’t want to kiss her inflated lips. This has killed our sex life. But the other day, my 14 year old daughter made a comment about wondering when her mother would start expecting her to get Botox. I’m fed up and don’t know how to talk to my wife about this. Yes, I support her right to make her own decisions, but I feel like I also have the right to not like it. And I don’t want my daughter to think about doing this as part of her freedom of choice. Please help. I’ll start simply by noticing it does seem to be true that whenever people are quarrelling and their kids are even tangentially involved, it’ll turn into suddenly my daughter, whereas earlier it might have been our daughter and now it’s just like, well, I don’t want my daughter to get the wrong idea, just like I just I often notice that little linguistic shift of just like it’s me and my kid against you or this sort of attempt to sort of like transfer one’s own wishes or one’s own desires or discomforts onto the sake of the child. Say it’s not me, it’s our daughter. It’s our daughter. Right. I don’t want to say anything. I want you to make your face look terrible if it makes you happy, even though I don’t understand why. But look at her over there. Does it strike you as me taking it a little too far? Does that seem to know

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S2: that that part didn’t get hit me because it could be read? I don’t want my daughter to look like that. And it’s not possess. I mean, I think that is in the eye of the beholder, based also on our experiences. I had tons of questions. For me. It was like, how was your sex life before she began doing this? Hmm. You might have thought it was great, but did she feel sex? How was her sex with you? You know, I mean, it’s interesting because he now is not turned on, but maybe she is turned on. See, there’s a lot of things I don’t know. Like like sometimes if a woman is feeling, I just God, look at that. My lips are just so thin now and, you know, and then if they get a little something that makes them feel fuller, it I don’t know. It depends on the degree, the balance. It’s like, do we all want to put Botox in our lips, not Botox. It would be something else. It’d be filler so that we all look like, you know, the housewives from some city, you know, whatever one of those shows are what we basically look like. We’re having a mask on. Do we want to have faces that don’t move, that does become Stepford Wives weird? OK, but on the other hand, there are a lot of people who have little things, and if it makes them feel good, maybe it’s OK. You know, maybe it’s not some horrible thing, but obviously their sex life has been changed for him. So they should discuss what it was like before and they should see how turned on she is. Because, you know, that’s interesting. Maybe maybe the two of them have been watching a lot of porn and all those women have big fat lips, you know, I don’t know. And then regarding the daughter, it was unclear to me whether the daughter was saying to her father, oh, God, when is she? Is she soon going to start making me want to have Botox? Because that’s also weird. You know, you get to a certain age and you’re trying to be like your parent. There’s a certain period. Then there’s thankfully another period where you’re like, God, I don’t want to become like them. And then there’s the period I’m in where you go, Oh, damn, I’m just like my parents, you know? But I think there’s a lot of things that were unclear in that if the daughter is becoming obsessed with putting things like not accepting who she is, then then there is a problem going on there. It’s different. It’s not like somebody who is felt like they were another gender from when they were born or something. It’s nothing like that. It’s about something that’s very superficial. And we should remember, because I was Googling all this stuff, fillers disappear into your body. So it’s not something that cannot be changed back. So there is a discussion and I didn’t I feel that again, just being getting in therapy and talking about it with your wife and saying, but I’m not turned on with this. And she’s saying, yeah, but I wasn’t turned on before. Right. You know, and then see where we’re going to go, you know. Yeah. There’s such such standards of beauty. And I certainly have been subjected to that all my life being in this industry. But when he says the thing about a feminist, that’s what I object to, because I was a feminist in the 60s and 70s, and that meant I didn’t do bikini waxing. I didn’t shave under my arms, I didn’t wear makeup, OK? I did not conform to the Madison Avenue. What they told me beauty was I didn’t have my hair all curled. Now I’m conforming much more, OK, but I didn’t then, so I feel you can’t really say it’s questionable because I think that all of these things, it’s like Victorian women who wanted to wear a corset and then look that weird when they had the course it off. I mean, you look like a weird person. So I think we’re in a phase now where everyone is looking like, you know, faces don’t move. I don’t know, something’s going to have to happen because I don’t believe this is coming so much from anything to do with feminism. To be honest, I think it has to do with money and power and how you feel sexually powerful. And it’s related to capitalism more than it is anything else.

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S1: I think that’s really, really important. Corrective. Yeah. I don’t want to shut this letter writer down entirely, but I think when he starts to kind of get into the weeds of, you know, if she is implying that I’m antifeminist, then we’re just going to need to have an argument with our daughter about what is the feminist thing to do with your face and what isn’t. Right. And then we’ll just make a list of what’s OK and what isn’t. And yeah, I take your point, too, about the fact that it sounds like based on this letter writer, his wife is currently played around with some Botox and some face fillers, both of which are not permanent, both of which either dissolve back into your body or the effects simply fade. So I think that is useful to consider here. These are not permanent interventions. These are interventions that can be tweaked. These are interventions that sometimes somebody might start small and scale up. Sometimes they might start larger and scale back.

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S2: They cost money, though. They are costly. Yeah, they cost money. And that’s where I understand his point of view entirely. I would not find kissing gigantic boobs or gigantic lips if I were a man that, you know, but then I’m not a man. So I don’t know, maybe maybe some people would find that a big turn on. You know, I think it’s going to for both of them depend on if they want this marriage, because ultimately it’s a sign of something. Yeah. Is the woman doing this so she can be sexy for her husband and make a relationship better, or is she putting those fillers in so she can be with the other women in her group and she can be show that she can spend money on herself that way? Who’s paying for them anyway? Does she earn her own money? And she’s doing this? I think a lot of women, especially with the YouTube things, I look at some of the videos and it’s like, wow, there is such an obsession of knowing the new tricks, the new everything. Part of it is wonderful. It was all a mystery to me. It took decades before I understood. So I really think that the hard thing is just to stay open to ask her really why she feels more beautiful. For whom? For herself. That’s important. How much does the relationship and the sexuality that she has for her husband mean and vice versa? You know, because you want to have a sex life and you want to have a relationship where you both appreciate each other for who you are, you know, not just what you look like.

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S1: Yeah, I think that is the right tactic here. I think especially, you know, I was a bit surprised when my wife expressed interest. And then, you know, it seems like the letter writer felt like, well, I know what I’m supposed to say, which is it’s your face. Do what you want. Right. And then he realized I actually do have some opinions here and hasn’t yet figured out. How do I avow those things without either saying I therefore demand that you do this to please me or just. Well, it’s your body, so I shouldn’t say anything, you know, because clearly the whole I’ve made some gentle suggestions. Hasn’t been working for you. Right. Partly because gentle suggestion. So, like, they’re so transparent most of the time, it’s usually quite obvious what the person actually means. And so I think, yeah, the right thing to do is to say like. You know, when you first mentioned you were interested in this, I was kind of surprised. I felt like it was my role just to say you do what you need to do. I think I haven’t done a very good job of that because then I did have some opinions and I started dropping hints. And I know that that’s bothering you. I don’t want to drop hints anymore. So I guess what I’d rather do now is just ask questions. When did you start thinking about this? Yes. What do you like about this?

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S2: Yes.

S1: Has it been painful for you when I have dropped hints about it? Are there better? What do you just want me not to say anything because, you know, then we might have a different fight about that. But I’d like to know

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S2: also, what about maybe she thinks he you know, how does she think about his body and his face? I mean, does she still find it attractive or is, you know, what has started this whole thing of wanting to be different? I understand. Want people wanting to to, you know, gee, we want to live longer and look better. That’s fine. But what about the relationship? I think it’s really about figuring out what’s the most important for both of them.

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S1: Yeah. And then I think the last thing is just then you also need to tell your wife what you heard from your daughter. And, you know, there’s so many different possible things that could have been behind that. Some of that could have been something that she’s been picking up from her mother. Some of it could be that she’s been picking up from you, that you don’t like it. And she wanted to, you know, ally herself with you. It could just be a dig. There’s I remember when I was 14 and all the different ways that I wanted to try to needle my mother and all the different ways that she, you know, asked me, like, you used to wear so many skirts and I don’t wear skirts anymore. What’s that about? You know, then I ended up, you know, becoming a man just to spite her. That’s not only to spite her. I didn’t want to spite her, but I also sometimes enjoyed fighting her. And it’s all it’s all a rich tapestry anyways, which is just to say then you can talk to your daughter together. Yeah. And I’m sure no matter what else your wife has been dealing with, she she’s not going to say to your daughter, yeah, kid, when you’re 18, I’m taking you in for your first, like, round of film. Right. Right, right, right. I think you two will be able to get on the same board there. Yeah.

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S2: Yeah, I hope so.

S1: Yeah, yeah. I mean, if nothing else, if your 14 year old decides eventually, like, I’m just going to do the opposite of what my mom does and they get a little fraught for a while. I’m sorry, but that also will just happen. You know, once my mother said that to me, I was just like, I’m going to wear pajamas every day. I don’t know if I’m getting anything out of this, but I sure as hell know that you’re getting something out of it. That’s what I need right now.

S2: But kids have to separate from the parents. Let’s face it. You know, it just has to happen. Otherwise, it’s really can be troublesome. Yeah.

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S1: Yeah. Better now fighting about Botox as opposed to a twenty four screaming at you in their childhood bedroom.

S2: Yes.

S1: Oh, well, those were some fabulous problems to get to adjudicate, I’m having so much trouble deciding which one I want to segway to you first because part of me thinks, all right, he said his wife’s face doesn’t move anymore. I can just segue right into movements and ask you about Lecoq. And I think that’s what I’m going to do, because I’ve just been so, so curious ever since I learned that you had graduated. How did you end up going to a movement school in Paris? What was that like?

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S2: It was the greatest thing that ever happened to me, really. It was one of the best things. So I was a senior at Brandeis. We were strike headquarters, OK, I was 1970. I was a year ahead in school and I had been taking the graduate acting classes. So all of my classmates in acting, we’re going to get their managers in New York City and are their agents and their career. And I was really just not my I didn’t think about career. I really didn’t. I was going, what do I want to do? And I because I had studied I had started dance training and stuff when I was like two and a half years old. It was ridiculous. I was pushed to do it by my parents. But part partly it might have been because I have a big spinal curve, which I never knew about until I was an adult and had a bone scan and they went, holy shit, you know that you have a major scoliosis like huge. And I went, No, but it explained why I never got chosen as the ballerina, which I always used to think, oh, I’m just lousy, you know. But it was really because my back wouldn’t bend. Well, at any rate, I had done every I had done Marcel Marceau mime. I mean, I can do a mean wall, you know, I can climb and do all that stuff. Right before Michael Jackson, I was doing all that. But it wasn’t cool then, you know, I was doing it. I don’t know how that happened. And then I would ride a unicycle. I did a lot of circus tricks. A couple of my teachers were had been in a circus. So I knew how to do all this stuff. It was wild, but it wasn’t considered like now Cirque du Soleil. Everyone’s like, oh, that’s so cool. People were like, huh? You know, you’re weird. And then Brandeis was very, very wonderfully hippie. I just loved it. I loved how different it was and everything. And so I got offered to do a workshop. I there was a man coming from Paris named Jack Lecoq. It was his first American visit that he was going to do a workshop for three days at Harvard University. And I found out about it because I had been the choreographer for the Harvard Hasty Pudding Club. And how I was asked, I had been waitressing. I met some guys and they were like talking about, you know, I think they were trying to come on to me in a way, but turned out they were the people who ran the Harvard’s Hasty Pudding Club. And they said, well, what kind of dance did you. I said, oh, well, you know, a couple of my friends are rockets now. And we did a lot of kick lines and they’re like, oh, that’s what we’re looking for. And so I ended up doing that. And so I think that’s how I found out. I read something. He was going to be there. Somebody told me, I don’t know, I got in because I had had mime training and I was an acting student. And in that three days, it just changed everything. Wow. He synthesized everything I loved in the world. He talked about architecture. He talked about visual arts. He talked about Greek tragedy, clown comedia. He just and silence like you. You studied silence so that you could understand why we have words, you know, when two words have to come in. You studied immobility to know when we have to move. I mean, just all of that kind of thing. It was very philosophical. I really do feel he was a genius in the field because he just synthesized it all and he gave me a scholarship after. And I said I really went up and went, I really would like to study with you. No one in my family had ever been abroad. And I said, but I can’t afford it. He said, I’ll give you a scholarship if you can get yourself over there, and I hope you find a job. And so that’s what happened. And then when I came back after a little over two years. And it was because of working papers. Mm hmm. He we did a three week workshop at Harvard and he let me be his assistant and everybody who went there were all these faculty members from all of the top drama schools in the United States and some from England. They all wanted him and he said, now I’m going back. I have my own school, why don’t you hire her? And I was like, twenty three or something. Twenty two. Twenty three. And I didn’t even think about it, you know, and he and I went really teach. No, I was going to and he’s like, just do it. It’s better than waitressing, you know, it’ll be good. And I ended up having time to develop my own ideas. It took a while but because in the beginning I was just like a parrot saying exactly what he had said. But he believed in that elasticity of thought of things that, you know, there’s that thing of logical thinking is we can shut out those weirder ideas sometimes and sometimes the imagination. And you go, no, no, it can’t be that way. Like, no, she can’t have fat lips or whatever, whatever can be. But when we actually start to look at how our muscles I mean, we train with our muscles are like elastic, they have to grow slowly, you know, and they can transform. And our minds can do that, too. And I felt all the time he was getting me to see something in a way I had not seen it that way before. And that was such a gift, you know, that you just you know, you look at something, you look at a tree. And because you’ve really studied things about how if I were I mean, it sounds silly, but, you know, how could I be rooted up and have something and how can I have a presence of a tree? We actually have a lot of things in common. Humans and trees, actually. Yeah, things like that. You know, what can I say? I really, really loved it.

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S1: I mean, for whatever it’s worth, I don’t think that that’s a ridiculous thought at all. I think anyone who can help you formulate a question of what might it be like to be something other than myself. Right. It’s incredibly valuable, especially as a teacher. Yeah.

S2: Yeah. And he had this way of teaching you so that his way was always no, that doesn’t work. He never would say that works. You would just know if people responded as an audience. And it was a very tough way for a lot of people are a lot. There were many students who didn’t like it because it seemed very judgmental. I mean, he could be harsh. I thrived under it. I have to say for me, I liked it and I felt at one point he was like I was very into directing in an early age. And I felt when we would do these creations every week, we had to come up with an autocue or whether it was this original little piece of work from observation. And then we’d put something together. And I felt like I was really, you know, a huge contributor to some of these things. And he would always in the beginning, he’d always be looking at the guys when he would critique. And I remember coming up to him and saying, could you please call me by my last name instead of mademoiselle? Could you say, you know, MacFadden, you know, and also look at me and critique me with the guys? Because I think he also had a shyness, but he was always looking at the guys, you know, and you know what he did? He went McFerran, you know? And it became a thing. But for me, it was important because I felt see and I felt like I was participating and. Yeah, remarkable man.

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S1: Yeah, that’s that is a truly remarkable story. And now I’m just thinking of all the different ways in which politeness can can feel like being made invisible. And I just I hope very much I know that you have your own new podcast launching where you are mostly talking to. It sounds like you’re old friends and former colleagues. I’m so hopeful now that you’ll be able to get somebody from, you know, the Lecoq school. It would be cool on the show. Do you still keep in touch with anyone else who’s involved?

S2: No, it was very hard because we didn’t have computers back then. We didn’t have cell phones. I mean, it’s a vast difference. I keep telling my son, you know, when I went there to France, I had no phone. There wasn’t there was maybe one phone in the building with the concierge. And I would have to go to the post office and pay ten dollars to speak for three minutes on the phone call. So I did it maybe once every four months. You know, it was a lot of money and it’s just a completely different world. I wrote letters and I made up sad songs when I played it on my guitar. And I went to see Buster Keaton movies, you know, and because he was huge and all of the Keaton and Chaplin that we always had silent movies going on all the time,

S1: I would imagine, especially like safety last in that kind of movement oriented school, you’d

S2: get a lot out of it. But you know, the way Lecoq is his school now, I mean, it’s this cool place. And it never was that when I was there, I was in the early years, the very early years. I don’t think he did it before

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S1: there was KRED for it, you know. Yeah. For the love of the movement.

S2: Oh yeah. Because first of all, we didn’t have that many students and our first place we would have puddles on the concrete floor of water. When we rehearsed, I remember we had to pay seven francs to pay for the electricity for the rehearsal and it was like a whole different thing. And then at one period, I think he was trying to raise money to be able to buy the new school, which is the coolest frickin place you’ve ever seen. It used to be a boxing ring and they just it’s fabulous. But I wasn’t a student when we were in the fab. They were in the fabulous place. I think I did. I went back and did a buffoon workshop with him when he was in the new place. And man, I loved it, you know,

S1: is buffoon like the character or his buffoon, just the tone of the entire workshop

S2: buffoon. Now he like there’s hero, clown and buffoon. The hero has the hammer however you want to pronounce it. I always said how much you

S1: I prefer to write it down so I don’t have to worry about pronouncing it.

S2: Well, some people say Hekmatyar or something, but I don’t, I don’t say that. Good for them. He he always that has the floor where the sun is actually on the left here. But he wants it so much to be on the right that he doesn’t see that it’s behind him. And so that’s his downfall. He refuses to see that some truth. The clown knows where the sun is, but is the world wants the clown to say that it’s in this other place, but the clown knows it’s not. But because the clown wants to please the world, the clown will go, Yeah, yeah, the clown will lie. Yeah. To please the audience. The buffoon tells the truth. That’s why the buffoon we always had to transform ourselves, our bodies. So we looked really ugly and deformed because then you can speak the truth. Nobody’s threatened by you. So that was what buffoonish was. And it was. It was. Wow, I can’t say that I became an expert in buffoon. He was developing clowning when I at my period. And so we’ve spent a tremendous amount of time doing that. And that’s something I’ve taught myself for four years at theatre schools. It’s that kind of theatrical clown

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S1: that’s just remarkable. And that’s a beautiful sort of roster of different relationships to truth and reality that I actually feel like I might just cribbed from you and use on future episodes of the show. I’m going to do this in mine is it’s a defining system.

S2: Tell me about your friend. Now I want. I know about your friend who went to the Kux,

S1: this was a friend of a friend, I was in Paris maybe two summers ago and the friend that I was with had, strangely enough, dated a series of people who had all ended up going to look alike. So this person was just like, I don’t know why, but if I date someone, she ends up going to clowning school. And I was so sort of intrigued and she had been able to sort of describe it, you know, the way that you do when you’re like, well, I’ve never done this, but a lot of my exes have, which was just like these 19 movements in a row. They all do. And you have to do it very specifically and very much in order. And one of it involves peering over a wall. And I couldn’t possibly describe it, but if I can find one of them, I’ll ask her to do it for me. And we eventually ran into her and we were having, you know, picnic out by the end of, as you do, and the sun was setting and she, you know, had been years. But she offered to go through them all one after another. And it took her a few minutes. She was a little rusty at first. And then all of a sudden it was just like she was pouring herself into this theater in front of us and like weaving in and out of different moments and stories. And so then she gets stuck for a second. Then she’d remember and you’d see her whole body just kind of light up. And it was one of the most stunning things I’ve ever seen. And then she was done and she kind of somersaulted and that was it. We were done.

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S2: Yeah. Yeah. That’s what was see those 20 movements. Everybody would do them in their own unique way. And you had to do them in the pattern. But you could decide your pattern, at least when I was there. Yeah. So it really makes a big statement what you choose, you know, whether you put that somersault before or after or during, it makes huge differences and it says something about you, which is what’s so wonderful. You really can sort of see who you are. And he talks about things like. Breath and that being aware of I mean, everyone in theater talks about breath, you have to use your air, but there’s something about just the intention when you have a mask on and you learn, I never studied puppetry, I studied mask and I taught mask. It’s the same articulation that a puppet has to have. If you have something in your hand and you’re articulating it right, it’s looking. It’s whatever you’re doing, you know, up and down. You’re doing the same thing with a mask. You learn how every tilt is a thought that you’re sending out. It’s a statement. And what your breath does is enormous. And you can dramatically change the whole feeling on the stage at that moment by by just letting an exhale out. I mean, it’s phenomenal. And people yes, there are people who do it automatically, who are brilliant, and they it just comes to them. But it is something that you can teach and it’s just getting you to observe and to be aware, to have a higher level of awareness of all these little choices that you can make as an artist. And it’s truly phenomenal to me. He would talk about it was what blew my mind. This for director was enormous. He would talk about putting the stage is on a pivot so that you had to learn how to be aware if people are coming downstage is turning this way. The balance of the stage is like this. If everyone’s going up there and that makes a difference even dramatically. If you as an audience, all the people are running to one side, there’s an imbalance. What happens when the stage is in balance? You know, I don’t know. I could go on for you see how I’m just like going now. I could go on for days and days. I’m not.

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S1: So I frankly, I wish that you would I wish we could set aside an entire episode. So many questions about masking and breath control and you know, how this did or didn’t go on to later influence the other work that you’ve done as a choreographer. What I do want to take a minute to hear a little bit more about your own show, because, you know, I’d be remiss if I had you on this podcast and we did not talk about the fact that you are launching a podcast of which I believe now two episodes have aired. I know the Jackson six episode came

S2: out and LeVar Burton is out now. And then Wil Wheaton is there was so much material. We had two and a half hour conversation. And I wanted to find a way to, you know, because he had played my son, I I am close to him. You know, he’s come over my house. He calls me space mom. I call him space son. His wife is my space and law. You know, I really do feel very familiar with him, but. I want but he’s such a good podcast host and is used to being controlling in that way that I thought, OK, I don’t want that to happen. I am shit at playing video games. I can’t do that. So, you know, I first I thought we could play a game, but I thought it’d be so boring for anyone watching because I’m so bad. So I came up with I made it a game and we had to put a penny in it. There were certain things, but we played. Never have I ever we play. And we went there. We went there and we talked about stuff that was pretty, pretty interesting. And I don’t know if people are going to be shocked that we talked about when we lost our virginity and stuff like that. But, you know, whatever I. I decided, hey, what the heck, you know, I’m your show.

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S1: You get to talk about anything you want.

S2: Yeah. I mean, well, I didn’t have a vision, Danny, of what I want. You know, I didn’t have a clear formula. So it was about finding out something about people who you’ve spent years with that you don’t know what. Let’s go back. Let’s talk about this story again. Maybe there’s some other thing that we can talk about now. We’ve all raised children. What’s that? Is there some you know, what can we talk about? It was also trying to I mean, these people are really interesting, wonderful people. I say that genuinely. And we are like a family. We fought like a family. We make up like a family. We support each other. And I this was an experiment. This was like a clown thing for me. I was like, do I risk failure or do I not? Do I stay safe and don’t do it just because I, I don’t have a clear vision? And I went, it’s the pandemic. Just do it. Say yes. And, you know, if it’s if it doesn’t work, OK, I’ll go on to something else. Yeah, that’s kind of the way I felt. But it’s been really fun and I don’t know, maybe it’ll branch out to something. I would love to speak to Simon McBurney. That would be phenomenal. Oh, wow. That would be a phenomenal I mean, for me personally that I would love to have him on the show. You know,

S1: add me to the to the list of people who would listen to that show. That would be an incredible, incredible good. I love to I so appreciate that. That sense of trying to lose preciousness wherever possible, which is not to say simply running headlong into any risk as soon as it presents itself. But but that sense of what is the worst thing that could happen here? I do a podcast that doesn’t go very well during the pandemic. Right. That’s fine. Yeah.

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S2: I mean, that’s really kind of what it was. I was just like, Gates, just come on, you’re not that important if it doesn’t work. So what you know, it’s like but you know how we get into these battles with ourselves and it’s silly. And I just decided, just go for it, see what happens. And I love Brian Bulc Weiss, who is the CEO of Nacelle. He’s he’s like the greatest CEO I’ve ever worked with. He he kind of like just totally believed me. Oh, no, I love whatever. Just go for it. That doesn’t usually happen in this industry.

S1: Like you have a CEO cheerleader. Yeah, I agree. That’s very rare.

S2: It’s never happened to me. Never. And I’m like, wow. And in the beginning I was like, OK, what’s the catch? Because that’s totally in my nature. I have this side of why are they saying they like me? I don’t know, there’s got to be something. And I just realized that was coming from me that wasn’t coming from him, you know, so I learned that. But back to the mask thing. You see, I’m looking thinking of the question we had from that guy. I can’t get through a whole show of the shows with all of the rich and the wives of this city, the wives of that city. I literally I can’t some people find it really amusing that it’s so outrageous. I you know, I’m just unable to get to that place. I just feel if they didn’t have the money, what would they be like? What what would the show be like? That’s the show I’m interested in. I’m interested in the show after they’ve lost the money and, you know, the divorce didn’t work out or whatever, and they don’t have the money for the the keep the lips full. That would be fascinating for me, you know, and it might be noble. It might be incredible. They might I don’t know. I don’t want to sound judgmental in a bad way.

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S1: No, but but show’s about what happens after you lose the money are almost always, you know, from my man Godfrey to anything else. Like it’s just always really fabulous to watch what happens the next moment. I’m so looking forward to the upcoming episodes of your show, I hope very much that at least one clown makes an appearance.

S2: Well, I’m the clown, sadly, the one who is always making the appearance. The show is called Investigates. Who do you think you are? But and it’s on they sell cars, but it’s on every platform. Yeah, I hope people enjoy it. I have really had a lot of fun. I’ve learned how to sound at it takes forever.

S1: But if you’re doing that yourself, it really does take forever. That it does.

S2: Well, you know what it is because it makes a huge difference. And I, I feel the editing really is what makes it work or not work in a way. And so when the first time I let them do it and I it it just wasn’t right. And I went back and I did did it all myself. Then they polish it, they make the sound richer. But I do the actual edits of what people are saying. I enjoy it and I take as much of myself out as I can, but not enough ever.

S1: One of the many advantages of getting to do your own editing is you get to decide exactly how and when you want people to hear you.

S2: Oh, I can’t stand to hear myself. You know, I don’t know if you feel that way, but I’m like, oh, God, you may have

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S1: chosen the wrong line of work in that

S2: case, but

S1: I enjoy it immensely. I have enjoyed it immensely. Thank you again so much. This is just for you, Danny. Absolutely lovely.

S2: Thank you so much for asking me on. Take care.

S1: Thanks for joining us on Big Mood, Little Mood with me, Danny Lavery, our producer is Phil Cercas, who also composed our theme music. Don’t miss an episode of the show. Had to slate dot com slash mood to sign up to subscribe or hit the subscribe button on whatever platform we’re using right now. Also, please leave us a review on our podcast. If you get a minute, we’d love to know what you think. If you want more big move little, you should join Slate. Plus, Slate’s membership program members get an extra episode of Big Mood, a little mood every Friday, and you’ll get to hear more advice and conversations and interview questions with our guests. And as a Slate plus member, you’ll also be supporting the show, Go to sleep dot com forward slash mood plus to sign up. It’s just one dollar for your first month. If you need some little advice or big advice and you’d like me to read your letter on the show had to slate dotcom mood to find our big mood, little mood listener question form or find a link in the description of the platform you’re using right now. Thanks for listening. And here’s a preview of our Slate Plus episode coming this Friday. I did not do anything remotely like clowning when I was younger, but I did ride horses for a number of years. And the kind of women who teach horseback riding have always terrified me. They’re the kind who always have, like, little cross stitches on their pillows of, like, I can only please one person per day. Today is not your day tomorrow, not looking at either end or just a serious woman with a gimlet eye. And I was just terrified. And they would like the one thing that they would always say is you ride like you’re terrified of falling off and you need to know if you keep coming back, you’re going to fall. You need to get ready to fall. And I just you know, my whole thing was like, of course, I’ll do whatever you say because you terrify me. But that was the one piece of advice I couldn’t internalize. It just thought in my head, like, you wait and see, I will be the one kid who goes their entire life without ever falling off a horse. I may end up being very bad at riding horses, but I will never fall. That will be my one thing. And I was, you know, I was able to like, clutch on the saddle and put it off for six months longer. But of course I fell and I hated it. But it also once had happened. It was just like now I’m not terrified to listen to the rest of that conversation. Join Slate plus now at Slate, dot com forward slash mood.