Separation Made Simple(ish)
Speaker 1: Welcome to mom and Dad or Fighting Place Parenting Podcast for Thursday, October 27th. The separation made simple additions and Jamilah Lemieux A writer contributor, displays care and feeding parenting column and mom to Naima, who is nine and we live in Los Angeles.
Speaker 2: I’m Zak Rosen. I make another podcast that’s called The Best Advice Show and I live in Detroit with my family. My oldest, Noah, is five and my youngest Amy is two.
Speaker 3: I’m Fiona Kong, founder of the Home Sweet Home Journal for Co-parenting Families. My son is named Emile. He’s six years old and we live in Los Angeles.
Speaker 1: Well, Fiona, thank you so much for joining us and we’re so excited to have you. And just selfishly, as a co-parenting parent, I’m always excited to have another co-parenting parent on the show.
Speaker 3: Same here. I’m excited for this conversation.
Speaker 1: Well, today on this show, we’ve got a question from a listener at the beginning of her separation journey. She wants to make sure everything goes as smoothly as possible for her five year old son. And we are going to give her some advice about raising a child across two households. And then on Slate plus, we’re going to check in on our Halloween plans here so she’ll hear if you have sleepless nights.
Speaker 2: Noah, this year is going to be Rainbow Sparkle Rose. That’s just a character I think that she made up.
Speaker 1: That is the costume name. Yeah. All right. We’re going to catch up on our weekend parent thing, but not before a quick break. See you back here in a second.
Speaker 1: All right, we’re back, Fiona, as our guest. Do you have a triumph or fail to share with us?
Speaker 3: I do. I had my son for a few days last week. You know, given that I co-parent. And one day, this was Friday afternoon. And I think after the whole week, kids are tired. There’s a lot of energy. And, you know, it’s been a long week. So we were at the park and things were going fine at the very beginning.
Speaker 3: Towards the end, things started falling apart and he was with some of his other classmates and all of a sudden there was a lot of kindergarten drama breaking out. Some of the kids started arguing and it was just kind of a symphony of, you know, these big feelings. All of a sudden, my son, he was curled up in a ball on the slide and he was sobbing. Of course, you know, you’re wondering, like, what happened. You know, So I went over there and he didn’t want to tell me. And in those moments, it’s great. The thing you can do is just let them move through it, right? There’s just not much you can say or do. When he was finally able to tell me, he said his friend had told him, I don’t want to hear from you. And that had really hurt his feelings.
Speaker 3: So I make it a point so that every night we talk about our feelings and kind of review our day so that he has a chance to reflect. And we didn’t get a chance to do it until Saturday morning. And he has a journal where it has five faces and there’s like, it ranges from happy and sad mad and there’s a crying face. And he ended up circling all of those things.
Speaker 3: And I was like, What did you feel like that? And he mentioned it again. He said, You know, I don’t want to name the friend, but she told me, I don’t want to hear from you. And apparently it was really in his heart. Right. He had slept all night and he woke up and he was still thinking about it. So we got to talk it out and say, you know, it’s normal to have these feelings. And you know, that girl, She was mad herself. And sometimes we say things that we don’t always mean. It doesn’t mean that you’re not friends anymore. But, you know, there’s times where, you know, sometimes we make a mistake and we say things we don’t mean. And, you know, it was just a good moment where I think he was able to open up.
Speaker 2: Mm hmm. And I can’t help but think of this girl who said it like it’s so likely that someone said that to her, you know, like an adult in her life, because a kid doesn’t come up with language like that. I don’t want to hear from you.
Speaker 1: I don’t want to hear from you.
Speaker 2: It’s a very adult phraseology, you know? So I’m sad for her that it’s likely that someone probably said that to her and now she’s trying to, you know, exorcise it. And the only way she knows how.
Speaker 1: That sounds very likely, because that’s not kid language in the slightest. Yeah. Yeah. But it is great that you all were able to have an exchange of feelings. And that’s amazing that you know that he’s so communicative about what he’s feeling inside is really important. He obviously done a great job giving him the language to talk about how he feels.
Speaker 3: We want them to tell us right, no matter what good or bad.
Speaker 2: So true.
Speaker 1: Zach, what about you? You have a triumph or fail?
Speaker 2: I have a triumph. As a Jew, I’ve been thinking a lot about Khanyi and just the rise in anti-Semitism in the country. Just hearing stories everywhere about hate speech and and this stuff on the rise as the backdrop to the really wonderful season of Jewish holidays we’re in the middle of right now. And just the ways in which we’ve been able to fold.
Speaker 2: My oldest, my youngest, Ami, who’s two, he he I mean, he’s involved, but like Noah, my five year old is able to start to understand the holidays and really get excited about how we celebrate and why we celebrate and just kind of relishing in the ritual which my wife and I have. Tried to be really intentional about like starting a couple weeks ago with the holiday of coat. And then there’s another one called Zoom Hatorah. We’ve just been like taking her to our synagogue or to the synagogue events that have been happening around the city and congregating with other folks who are also Jews in Detroit, of which there aren’t so many. It’s just so cool to see. What it actually looks like when we hand our rituals down to our kids and for them to actually be excited about it and to ask questions about it and to kind of do it in community in a way that is fun to us.
Speaker 2: Like growing up, my Jewish upbringing was fine and great in a lot of ways, but I was never like excited about it. And now I’m seeing Noah get excited about it, and then I in turn get excited through her. And it’s it’s just this really special thing that I’m not taking for granted. I’m just like, super like, wow, we are raising a Jewish child in Detroit and doing it in the way we want to, and it feels great.
Speaker 1: I’m so envious of anyone who’s really like found community where they live, you know? I mean, that’s what happens when you move away from where you grew up, you know, and keep moving. But that’s awesome that you all are able to come together and celebrate the holidays and that your kids are you know, I just think it is every time you talk about.
Speaker 2: Bruno.
Speaker 1: You do stuff. You know, I just think it’s really cool. And we have the same commitment when it comes to Naima and, you know, and her culture. But I just I think it’s really important for our families to introduce their children to their heritage in a really meaningful and thoughtful way and to normalize it, you know, for it’s not just be a special occasion thing, which is a part of who you are.
Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks.
Speaker 3: It’s some of these traditions that we keep up, you know, that we can talk about from generation to generation that makes our childhood and sharing it with the next.
Speaker 1: So special shout out to you from being of a religion that has so many holidays. That’s got to be nice.
Speaker 2: We got so many, especially in the fall.
Speaker 1: So many. Yes, I’m aware of it because I’ve raising a child. I’ve raised a child in New York. In L.A.. Yeah. So ask me how.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Love it.
Speaker 1: They get those days. Yes, which is very cool.
Speaker 1: All right, well, my fail is that I have become a baker again. My triumph is that I have become a baker again. I realized that, like, we always have cake or brownies or cupcakes in the house. Now, like, we are making these things like every other week, sometimes week to week. Last night we bakes cupcakes. And it was very important to Amy that we yeah, that the cupcakes even got baked was a triumph because we didn’t get home until 645 and, like, we’d had to put the cupcakes off for a day. And she was devastated about that because we didn’t get home until late on Sunday. And she was like, What’s your promise? And I’m like, But it’s nighttime. It’s like late, you know, you have to go to school in the morning.
Speaker 1: And so we made black and white cupcakes last night. They came out. They’re good. They I like I have an exacting standard for baked goods. I’m very particular about them. But she really liked them. I think they’re decent. I think there’s room for improvement. I think they’re a little dry. But we got them from the New York Times cooking section. They’re like vanilla cupcakes with chocolate chips in them and a chocolate icing. But yeah, like, we just can’t stop baking over here.
Speaker 2: I mean, it’s such a great bonding activity.
Speaker 1: Yes.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Noah and Shira do it a lot. Do you watch baking shows together?
Speaker 1: I don’t know. We haven’t. Maybe we should. The only, like, baking show we’ve ever watched was Nailed it.
Speaker 2: That’s so fun.
Speaker 3: That’s funny.
Speaker 1: So fun. Yeah. On that note, let’s take another quick break. We will see you in a second with our listener question.
Speaker 1: Time now for our question. Dear Mom and dad. I’m the mom to a really wonderful five year old. He just started kindergarten this year and has transitioned well overall. This is wonderful because we may have a new change coming because Dad and I are thinking about separating. We started discussing how we’re going to make this work. He’s thinking of moving Cross Town bar, but not far enough where he can’t be involved in our son’s life. And it’ll make joint custody easier when we get to that point. I’ll probably be the primary parent as his job is requiring him to travel more now. What I want to know is how do I make this a seamless as possible for our son? Is there any way to make going back and forth between homes easier? We’re just at the beginning of this process, and I love some tips and advice, as I’m sure there’s a million things we’re not even considering in terms of making this easy on our son. Thanks to home soon.
Speaker 3: I have so many thoughts on this. I wish we had 2 hours to talk about it. I think co-parenting for three and a half years now. So I was definitely at the starting point then where you’re trying to make the best of the situation for your child. And I heard this really good quote on Instagram, and I don’t know who to treat attributed it to, but essentially it was, do you want a child centered divorce or a divorce centered childhood? And that context was just so powerful to me because, you know, when we we I had to start approaching it. It’s it’s this whole big mess, right? You’re rearranging everything. You know, I actually ended up moving out. And so there’s just a lot of dynamics happening and you want your child to be okay.
Speaker 3: Of course, that’s the first and foremost thing. So I had like a whole list of things. I actually put together a guide on how to make transitions easier. And I would say the top I’ll do two, maybe three things is, one, you know, you are the rock for your child. That, for me meant, you know, taking control of my healing, my happiness, my well-being. And if you don’t put your own life jacket on first, you can’t take care of your child in the best sort of way. So, as I said, just taking time to heal and do things for yourself is probably one of the best things.
Speaker 3: And also focusing on, if you can, that relationship with their co-parent. And I know it’s not always possible because, you know, there’s, you know, on their end, they may be a narcissist and it may be high conflict. But, you know, anything you can do for your child, it’s, you know, don’t speak badly of them in front of your child. Don’t argue or fight in front of them. I actually spend a lot of time reading comments from adults who went through divorce as, you know, their parents or a divorce. And a lot of them say they remember the fighting and the arguing, like that’s what sticks in their mind. And that’s something that I would never. No matter what. Right. You know, don’t put that in front of your child.
Speaker 3: The second thing I would say is give your child consistency and predictability. You know, their whole world is being turned upside down like they have to most likely live in two homes. And that schedule is, I think, a real challenge. So we started using a visual calendar for my son when he was three and he was able to use it right like and we were on a 2 to 3 schedule, so none of the days were the same. So it would like we I didn’t always have on Monday and Tuesday, it would vary every other week. And I think having that visual for him made him feel safe. You know, you can print one out.
Speaker 3: I actually created a journal specifically for co-parenting families. It’s a journal that’s in a planner that stays with a kid between homes. And it has their schedule and it has journal space every night. That’s where we can talk about what happened in many ways are being bounced back and forth between homes and how will you know what they’re struggling with unless you ask.
Speaker 2: Jamilah, I want I want to hear your perspective on this. I just had a quick question for both of you. Do either of you either, you know, on an ongoing basis or did you at one point have a conversation with your kid’s other parent and like establish ground rules of like how to be?
Speaker 3: So when we first separated, it was I would say it wasn’t highly contentious, but we weren’t very friendly. And we are now like, it’s been an evolution of, you know, like we’re when he first started, you’re dealing with your own emotions and we would only talk about anything related to our son. He was two and a half. So we did have to have a lot of those conversations about, you know. How we do things is certain in both households so that he could have consistency. We were able to do that. I don’t think it’s you know, some parents aren’t there yet. We would have an official meeting and that’s something we did and we never talked about like our personal stuff. But and it was kind of weird, like having a business like meeting. But that’s what worked for us. And eventually, you know, we’re in a really great place that we’ve taken family trips together, but it wasn’t like a overnight thing by any means.
Speaker 1: We’ve been co-parenting Naima since birth. We broke up, you know, prior to finding out that we were expecting. So we’ve always been doing this. And it was a contentious breakup and a difficult situation early on. But from when Naima was born, there was just this kind of unspoken agreement that we were just going to make things work.
Speaker 1: But no, we never talked about ground rules. We never had a formal parenting conversation. The early days, our talks were very limited, just logistics. And this thing happened. This many diapers, this observable rash, you know, this happened. That’s like we weren’t talking parenting pedagogy, you know, like, I would assert things that I wanted. You know, I think she should do this. I think she should have that, you know? But we didn’t really become collaborative until a few years and and over time became friends in a way, and have like a really amicable relationship and have done holidays and things together.
Speaker 1: But no, like, it’s kind of scary what we’ve been able to do with that officially talking about it, you know, we’re in constant conversation about, you know, Naima and how we navigate certain things now. But I do realize that there are two different households. You know, the other factor is that in her other household, there is another mom and another child, you know, And so I think both households are led in a lot of ways by the Mother Energy, you know, and it’s similar in a lot of ways and different in other ways.
Speaker 1: And so I think that if it were just Naima that we were dealing with, there would probably be some things that we’d be talking about that we’re not talking about because since they’re also parenting another child, you know what I mean? Like, it’s, it’s kind of hard for me to, you know, like some of the things that I wish that maybe we were all on the same page about. It’s like they’ve got their own parenting pedagogy and set of things that they feel and need and believe in and their own child, you know? And so for me to. Challenge that, you know, in service of my own child is difficult, but I would still think of us as being relatively collaborative.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I know that the listener also asked about logistics, like what would make going back and forth easier. I assume, like, you know, the kids have two sets of toothbrushes and stuff, but what are some of like non-obvious things that you’ve figured out logistics wise that helps to make life easier?
Speaker 1: A wardrobe.
Speaker 2: Double.
Speaker 1: Wardrobe like the wardrobe that you enjoy in both houses so that there is no like, Oh, I wish I had this, but it’s always is so and so’s house and you can keep it. You know, we generally, sometimes things stay over here, but I usually try to send them back, you know, so that they have their full wardrobe of clothes and things to choose from, you know, And I have the one that I’ve purchased. What else? Favorite toys.
Speaker 1: Four or five year old, you know, things. Comfort items, favorite foods. Yeah. I think in terms of like things to remember, those are the ones that stick out the most for me. In terms of other logistics, I would say trying to establish a rhythm that you try to adhere to a schedule that can be flexible where it needs to be, but that feels like a schedule, you know, like so you start having rituals and like, as Fiona mentioned earlier, like saying it out loud, like, I’m going to drop you off at your dad’s house today and I’m going to pick you up in three days, you know, and like acknowledging that I know there were times where I think we were just so busy and doing so many things that there would be things coming up and Naima wouldn’t know.
Speaker 1: And I’d be telling her last minute like, Oh, Dad’s picking you up tonight. And she’s like, Huh, You know, But you always pick me up on Wednesdays. I’m like, Oh, my dad has to do it because you all are going somewhere. You know? It’s like, she really needs to be like, your child really needs to be, like, clued in on changes his schedule and like, have some idea of what their time with you all is going to look like. It shouldn’t be haphazard.
Speaker 1: And if Dad’s travel schedule is such that it can’t help but to be haphazard, you still need to figure out rituals with him. Phone calls, Skype calls, face time or whatever. Like there needs to be some dad time rituals every week, you know, so it doesn’t feel like a disruption once he’s in town.
Speaker 3: It’s also true just being flexible is so key. I think in the beginning when it’s a tough time for them. One of the traditions that we I do is actually like a welcome home tradition to welcome my child back home. And we talk you talked about this like you having a favorite food. I started picking out books from the library and I put a new book on his nightstand every time he came home.
Speaker 3: And he would always be like, Oh, when you book one last tip, that I feel has been also helpful for us, for especially for younger kids, is I started going to the library and getting books that talk about separated homes to homes and families, diverse family types. Because when you think about children and they think, Hey, I’m supposed to have my family under one roof, you know, they don’t know anything otherwise. So there’s so many good books now for divorced families that talk about, you know, just living in two homes that help give them perspective and normalize it for them.
Speaker 1: I always mention the kids book about series as being really helpful. There’s a series of books called a Kids Book about, and they cover topics like divorce and terrorism and abortion and, you know, other things they’re challenging. It’s talk about with the kids. But, you know, I think you should get a bunch of those books. And like I said, diverse books, you know, ideally books that look like your family and some that don’t look like your family, but just really normalizing this experience. You know, that there are people all over the world, you know, kids your age, younger or older, that are going through this same experience, because this is very common.
Speaker 1: There are very few children’s books that feature single parent led households. Mhm. You know, and it would be really nice for your child to start reading those. You know, there are books that are sometimes about children that are going through a divorce, you know, or, or children that divide their time between two households I guess. But I haven’t seen too many of the ones that are about co-parenting or about single parent households. But if you can find some, you should. Okay, Well, to Holmes soon. We’re wishing you all the best. Please keep in touch. We love to know how everything goes. We really appreciate updates.
Speaker 1: Everyone else, if you have some advice to offer, please send us a voice memo or email us at mom and dad at Slate.com. That’s also where you can send us any questions of your own. And that’s it for our show. Fiona will be back with us on Monday for another question and everyone’s favorite recommendations. So be sure to tune in. And while you’re at it, please subscribe to the show wherever you get your podcasts so that you never miss an episode. This episode of Mom and Dad or Fighting, is produced by Christy, Taiwo Mack and Julia and Rosemary Belson, Bert Fiona Kong and Zak Rosen and Jamilah Lemieux. Thanks for listening.
Speaker 1: All right, Slate Plus, listeners, let’s keep going. We are headed into Halloween weekend, so we figured it would be fun to check in on what we’re doing. We can start with you, Fiona. How are the costumes going? Are you dressing up as your little one? Dressing up?
Speaker 3: Oh, okay. I’m a little behind as we are a few days out for Halloween. I did figure it out finally. My son wanted to be a dinosaur at first, but then he changed his mind. And he wants to be a stormtrooper. So I am picking up a costume today. He’s actually going to be at Dad’s for Halloween for school and Halloween night. So I haven’t decided if I’m going to go up there because, you know, L.A. traffic. Oh, yeah. I don’t have a costume. I’m and I feel very bad about that because when I think about. You mean.
Speaker 2: For yourself?
Speaker 3: For myself. And I feel very bad about that because when I think about my childhood, you know, my parents didn’t dress up. And for me, it’s kind of trickle down where I’m like, I don’t I don’t like Halloween. It’s not my favorite holiday. But at the same time, I want my child to enjoy it and to be excited about it. How is he going to be excited about it if I don’t do it right, if I don’t participate?
Speaker 2: I mean, in defense of not dressing up because I don’t dress up either. I’m thinking back to when I was a kid. I got excited about Halloween, but it wasn’t because the adults in my life were dressed up. I don’t. I don’t know. Does your kid care if you dress up like, isn’t it like I know my daughter hasn’t asked me once what I’m going to be. She’s just super focused on what she’s going to be. So I would say just don’t put too much pressure on yourself because, you know, your kid will probably have fun despite your costume, I assume.
Speaker 1: But I used to dress up. It was I think my mother never dressed up. I used to dress up. I also used to make elaborate costumes. And I have fallen off in the past couple of years since we moved to L.A.. Like I use, Naima has been Beyonce a few times, and she’s had some really elaborate homemade Beyoncé costumes. I think one year she was Katherine Jackson, the NASA’s scientist who is featured in Hidden Figures. And that’s cool, you know.
Speaker 1: Well, anyway, I used to dress up with her like, every years we went out, like one year we were both Beyonce. We did different look for a long dance or a homecoming concert. And then one year we were Beyonce and Beyoncé. But that’s like we had stuff to do. And like, I guess this week, I don’t know, I think we might go to some Halloween stuff on Sunday, and so I just don’t have it in me this year. My spirit is not there. I know thinking about taking her to something, but like she’s going to do actual Halloween night.
Speaker 1: Oh, so her school does this thing called college and career day on Halloween. So they can’t wear Halloween costumes, but they can either dress for the college they want to go to or dress for the career they want to have, which I think is super corny. Super corny. I know a lot of black folks don’t do Halloween for like religious reasons. I don’t know. It’s not a religious school. So I’m kind of surprised that they’re taking you know, I don’t know if this is because they’ve had issues with kids wearing masks in class. You know, I don’t know. She does have Howard and Spellman gear, so she’ll be ready for school on Monday, but she’s going to actually do Halloween night with her dad.
Speaker 1: So she and her brother can go trick or treating, which is kind of one of the bummer, like some bummer moments and co-parenting, though even if I wanted to go, I could. You know what I mean? Like, I would be welcome. It would be fine. It would be no big deal. But it’s like I don’t necessarily want to be a part of you guys. It’s family gathering, you know? But on the flip side, I don’t really have Halloween. I mean, this year I can’t think of anything that I would want to be. And I think my name is going to be like, if she wants to be a WNBA player, I think she has to be A’ja Wilson.
Speaker 2: So that’s cool.
Speaker 1: Yeah, though it’s great. It just doesn’t you know, it doesn’t require me to get out my glue gun being like I’m used to. It’s not like Janet Jackson, you know what I mean? It doesn’t give me much to work with. Doesn’t make my creative.
Speaker 2: Noah. This year is going to be Rainbow Sparkle Rose. That’s just a character I think that she made up.
Speaker 1: That is the Castro name.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. So she’s going to wear her rainbow pants, her rainbow sweatshirt, and we’re going to do sparkly rainbow face paint. And then Shira is going to make like a rainbow about a rainbow, some kind of, like floral, you know, rose petal construction paper thing for for her hat, you know, rainbow sparkles. Rose.
Speaker 3: So creative.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is.
Speaker 2: We’re we’re. We’re into it. I’ll take some pictures.
Speaker 1: Will she explain it to people? Like, when are you going to go trick or treating?
Speaker 2: Yeah, we’ll go trick or treating. I mean, someone asked her the other day, like, what are you going to be? She’s like, Rainbow Sparkle Rose, As if. As if people are supposed to know what that is. So yeah, I’m excited to see how she explains it. But I mean, I think the costume in itself is pretty self-explanatory. Rainbow plus rose plus sparkly face. And she’s a Rosen. Yeah, she’s Rainbow Sparkle Rosen.
Speaker 1: If a rainbow sparkle rose came to my door, I would be so happy. Yeah, I wish I’ve never lived anywhere that people actually I Maybe when I was in bed sigh in my last apartment maybe. And I generally just don’t think we were usually home on Halloween night to find out. But like I’ve never lived anywhere that people trick or treat too. Like I’ve always lived in apartments, you know? And so, like, I live in a condo building now, Like there’s no like there there’s like three kids in the building. Like, there’s nobody is knocking on our doors, you know? And I would like to hand out the candy like that. Seems like that part would be fun. It’s so fun with you. It’s great.
Speaker 2: I invite both of your families to Detroit to celebrate this year.
Speaker 3: Oh, we’ll be right there.
Speaker 2: I’ll make I’ll make soup.
Speaker 3: Too.
Speaker 1: Well, that is our Halloween chicken. We hope that you all have a good, spooky time plan for you and yours. Thank you so much for supporting Slay. Plus, we will see you back here on Monday. And don’t forget to join us on Thursday for another bonus segment by.
