How To Do Divorce Right

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Amanda Ripley: What’s something you’re looking forward to post-divorce?

Speaker 2: Oh, well, I mean, because I’ve had a taste of separation. Just not having that anxiety when talking to Rodney on the phone, you know, What’s he going to say? You know what’s wrong now? What you know, to just be done?

Amanda Ripley: Welcome to How to. I’m Amanda Ripley. We have a lot of questions on this show about relationships and marriages, how to maintain them, how to make them stronger and more fulfilling. But sometimes, let’s be honest, the best solution for a troubled relationship is to end it. The average marriage lasted eight years, and while the divorce rate nationwide has been going down for decades, the divorce rate for couples over 50 years old has actually been rising. Those couples are now twice as likely to divorce as they were in 1990. That’s the hard reality that this week’s listener, who we’re calling Bernadette, is wrestling with.

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Speaker 2: After the pandemic. My husband said that he wanted to get out and that’s where I am now. mid-Fifties hadn’t worked a very long time counting on the life that we set and now trying to navigate it, which is what brought me to how to how do I navigate this new change in my life? Something I didn’t expect, but something I know I need to embrace and I am. But how does one do that professionally, personally, and do it well?

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Amanda Ripley: Hmm. Yeah. No, it’s a lot. And I appreciate your reaching out to us from that. I know it’s not an easy thing. So it was his idea to end the marriage, and it’s came as something of a surprise. But. But not entirely. Do I have that right?

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Speaker 2: I would say that I knew the marriage was not healthy, was not at I can’t even say it was good. And I assumed that we’d be in a not good marriage for the rest of our lives because that’s what we committed to. So it was a shock. And I’m like, Wait, now what? And it’s the piece that I wrote to how to to decide what pieces to pick up first, What what do I do given that what I thought was isn’t.

Amanda Ripley: In some ways, Bernadette is fortunate. Her three kids are all grown up now, so there won’t be a giant custody battle. And she has a Ph.D. and a good job. But the comfortable retirement that she always planned to share with her husband is suddenly gone. And it can be really hard to start over later in life, not just financially, but also socially.

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Speaker 2: I would say the embarrassment and shame of not having it work out, you know?

Amanda Ripley: So so it feels like on some level, embarrassing.

Speaker 2: Embarrassing and then, you know, showing up alone and unmarried. It’s just kind of weird, right?

Amanda Ripley: It feels like you’ve done something wrong.

Speaker 2: And I wanted to be able to move forward in a smart fashion, to embrace the next thing, to keep me happy, sane, whole, legally, financially, socially protected.

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Amanda Ripley: That’s a long list. A good list. But a lot for anybody to wrap their arms around. So we called in the divorce doctor herself, clinical psychologist, Dr. Elizabeth Cohen.

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Speaker 3: I specialize in working with people who are going through the divorce process, both considering experiencing. And my favorite part, the after glow, as I call it.

Amanda Ripley: She’s also the author of Light at the Other Side of Divorce Discovering the New You, which is exactly what Bernadette is looking for.

Speaker 3: You said something interesting, like, I assume we’d be in this unhappiness forever. And I’m here to say no. You will never be in unhappiness forever because you deserve to have happiness and joy. And we’ll talk about how to get there.

Speaker 2: Oh, thank you.

Amanda Ripley: Now, of course, there is no easy way to end a marriage, but surely there are better and worse ways. I mean, something like 53 million Americans alive today have gone through a divorce. That is a lot of hard earned wisdom. So on today’s show, Dr. Cohen is going to share some of that wisdom to help Bernadette and all of us get through loss and transition with as much grace, humor and sanity as possible. Stay with us.

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Amanda Ripley: Okay. So before we go any further, it’s worth saying that divorce is a really complicated topic. It comes in all different shapes and sizes, and there are so many ways it can go. This episode is not a nuts and bolts look at how to jump through the legal hoops because that’s not what Bernadette’s is asking for. She wants to know about the mindset, habits and daily practices to help her get through to the other side. And it starts with the pencil and some paper every day.

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Speaker 3: Write down at least three great things that you’ve done because you are a powerhouse. And so you started by telling us the amazing accomplishments you have had graduate school before 30. Raising these kids who could launch. And very often when people are in a marriage that hasn’t been fulfilling them, those parts of them get quieted, hidden and not seen. So a big part of your job first is going to be to keep seeing that, keep noticing it. And as a behaviorist, I really believe in noting it every day. So noticing the things that you do that are really beautiful and it can be holding the door for somebody speaking to the barista, smiling at somebody they don’t have to be, you know, donated $100,000 to charity. They can be small bits of your life that really show your strength.

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Speaker 3: The second thing I just want to say, Bernadette, is that you are so not alone with the after the pandemic partner deciding that the marriage is ready to be let go of the pandemic, really? You know, many people in relationships and walk through them. I don’t know if this was your experience and maybe you have a job where you have intimate relationships with people not sexually, but you know, emotionally so that you feel fulfilled. And then suddenly all of that stopped and we had to really look at who we were sitting next to in this house. And I mean, as a therapist and as someone who loves watching people move through this process, I actually think it was a great thing to happen because it really allowed people to see what wasn’t working.

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Amanda Ripley: Bernadette, I’m wondering when you think about the pieces that do need to be picked up, which is the piece that’s most on your mind, is it about the financial side? Is it about the social side? Is it about, you know, trying to join the new dynamics with your grown children? What’s most on your mind right now?

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Speaker 2: What’s most on my mind? Amanda, as what you listed first, the finances, because I put things on hold to raise the family so that at the age of 60, whatever, we would take our retirement and be able to live on that. Now, that’s not the case. It’s different. So financially, that concerns me.

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Amanda Ripley: Her concern is valid. Statistically speaking, women who get divorced over the age of 50 experience a 45% decline in their standard of living. On average, their ex-husbands experience a decline too, but it’s about half as steep. So Bernadette’s right to be worried about the money for practical reasons and for other deeper reasons to. And you took how many years out of the workforce to raise your children to.

Speaker 2: A good 25 full time. And then probably 15 years I worked part time.

Amanda Ripley: I see so much of your career was either part time or full time raising kids, which makes it just y you could have three kids. It’s not an easy thing to do. If both people are working full time. Exactly. So you kind of made that possible for your family and had certain expectations. Meanwhile, I assume your husband was continuing to work this whole time. Correct.

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Speaker 3: You did the hardest job anyone could ever do, which is managing children’s emotional, physical, spiritual lives while also managing your home. And to really continue, as I said earlier, to think about your assets, what you’re bringing to things. I talk to people a lot about the words we choose. Even people talk about, you know, I feel like such a failure that my marriage ended. And I really try to encourage people to say my marriage gave me everything that it could and it is now time to release it.

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Amanda Ripley: Here’s another insight as you write this next chapter of your life. Choose your words carefully. How are you telling people now if. If I’m a friend, I haven’t seen you in a while. What do you say?

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Speaker 2: You know, walking around, you know, 30 years in this marriage and. Oh, you know. Hi, Bernadette, you know, how’s Rodney? And it’s like, Oh, you know what? What do I say? And I want you to because I’m an educator. I wanted that little you know, I wanted that little tagline that, oh, without lying, you know, if I’d say, Oh, Rodney’s the same, right? Or Yeah, but Rodney and I are separated, then have to go through that.

Speaker 2: Oh, I’m sorry. Or Oh, yeah, I knew you weren’t getting whatever. I just didn’t want to go through that. But I wanted to be truthful, you know? So what story am I telling him? What I’m realizing as I go through my social life. No one’s really asking for that thinking. They don’t. They care about me. But at this point, our lives were so separate, you know, so socially, no one’s really asking. But professionally. Which was another reason why I wrote in. What do I do? You know, when I go from, you know, Bernadette to my regular last name at work with my email signature, if I change things, what’s that going to look like? And I don’t want to have to deal with that truth, and I know I need to. Dr. Cohen, I’m sure you’ll tell me that my social strength can’t come through an email signature.

Speaker 3: Right? I think you’re bringing up such important points, Bernadette, that so many people think about. So first, I just want to talk. I have a chapter in my book called Friends or Foes, and it’s really important before you even think about who you’re talking to and what you’re saying. Let’s do a little inventory of the different kinds of people in our lives. We all have people that are in different tiers. Brené Brown speaks about, you know, if you have two people who you can really open your heart to, you’re golden. And so there are these people who are cheerleaders who, you know, if you call and say, oh, you know, I just talked to Rodney. It was a really hard conversation and say, girl, you know, you’ve got so much going for you. You got your whole life in front of you. They’re just your cheerleaders, right?

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Speaker 3: Unfortunately, we all have this other group, too, which are naysayers, which are people who I’m sure you have this Bernadette to, who no matter what you say, they’re always like, Well, why is he doing that? You know, they kind of are are more negative. And unfortunately, there’s a social psychology phenomenon that we go to those naysayers more than we go to our cheerleaders. I think it’s because, you know, if we convince them, then somehow we convince ourselves that what we’re doing is right, but it really messes us up. And so before you even think about what am I going to say to this person, think about how do I feel around this person, and is this person a comfortable person to open my heart and my vulnerability with?

Amanda Ripley: There’s a lot you can’t predict in life, but one thing you can predict is that a lot of people who ask you about your divorce will project their own feelings onto you, about their own hopes and fears, resentments and grudges. Dr. Cohen discovered this when she went through her own divorce 14 years ago.

Speaker 3: So people would come to me and say, Oh my God, you must be so upset. I can’t believe this. I’m so sorry. And then another group of people would say, Oh my God, how did you do that? Tell me it was all about their marriage has nothing to do with me and so on. People would say, I’m so sorry. I would actually sometimes stop them and say, I understand that’s your feeling. I’m actually really happy and excited about this next chapter. And you’d be amazed that we actually can set the tone of the conversation. So for some people that you don’t really want to get into it, you can say, thanks for your concern. I’m actually doing well. What’s going on with you? Like you’re in charge of this?

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Speaker 3: There’s something about getting divorced. I think it’s similar like when you’re pregnant and people think they can touch your stomach. Like when you say you’re getting divorced, people think you want to, like, go into the whole story. That’s not a healthy response for everybody. So I really want you to think about who’s in front of you and how do they make you feel and how much do you want to actually open up to them. It’s your choice. And no is a full sentence. No, thank you. I don’t feel like talking about it. Thanks for your concern.

Amanda Ripley: Now this takes practice, but it’s totally worth it. Whenever you’re dealing with something hard, whether it’s a job loss or a death or a divorce, really, anything that you might have to talk about in public before you’re really ready to write down and memorize is short, decisive response that you can just keep in your back pocket.

Speaker 3: Even though you and Rodney might not have been in the happiest place in your marriage, you still imagined, as you said, beautifully, a life together. Changing your email signature is a big deal for you because it’s it’s a symbol of the grief and the loss. So whether you call a friend and say, I’m doing this now, can we talk on the phone while we’re doing this? Or take a deep breath and take yourself out for a coffee after you do it, really do it gently, knowing that it’s a process of your grief. It’s not just changing a signature, it’s part of your grief. And we really need to learn to honor feelings. It’s something that in our culture we really don’t. We push through. I should be over it. I don’t know if you have these thoughts. This shouldn’t bother me. Why am I so upset? Do you sometimes have those thoughts?

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Speaker 2: Of course. Of course I do. Yes.

Speaker 3: Yeah. And that’s so negating of your experience. You have feelings because you’re human. If we don’t have feelings, then we’re not having a full experience. And so many of us want to just have the what we call positive feelings, joy, excitement, happiness. And the truth is that feelings are simply excitations in the brain. And if we don’t let ourselves have all of them, we actually will miss out on any of them. And an important test to remember when you’re going through this is just that emotions last for 90 seconds if we don’t do anything to change them. So if you notice when you’re changing your email signature, Oof! Ouch, this hurts. Stay with that for 90 seconds and it’ll move right through you.

Speaker 2: This is excellent. That was another question I had. How long? You know, how long will I feel this? But you just put a time on it and I can sit there for 90 seconds. That’s good.

Speaker 3: I’m glad. One bit at a time. One little bit of it.

Amanda Ripley: Yeah. It’s funny because I always hear this. You got to sit with your feelings. You got to sit with your feelings. You got to let it go through. You can’t. You can’t suppress it. Ready to come back to bite you. And I know it’s true. We all know this is true. There’s a ton of research and life experience behind it, but having a time limit is something way, way more doable. And I’ve literally never heard that before. So.

Speaker 2: Right.

Amanda Ripley: Thank you for that.

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Speaker 2: It’s like labor pains, you know, they tell you, oh, it’s going to last forever. They laugh and they stop. They like, you know, so this is good. This is instead of labor pains, they’re divorce pains, they’re intermittent. They don’t go on forever. And at the end of labor, you get a baby. But at the end of divorce, we’ll get our joy back.

Speaker 3: Yes, That’s so beautifully said. What a beautiful way of saying that.

Amanda Ripley: This is a really smart step for dealing with any kind of painful emotion. Whenever you feel those waves of sadness or dread rising up and you just let it rip for 90 seconds and then see how you feel.

Speaker 3: In my book, I do talk about actually writing on tissue paper the story that you thought was going to happen. So you mentioned a little bit about it. You know, at 60 we would retire and the kids would be out of the house and and then write it all out because that was a story that you had in your mind that you envisioned. And then with tissue paper, what’s really cool is if you wrap it up, you can burn it and it kind of flows into it and disintegrates into the sky, into the air. And you can really, if you want, as a spiritual person, say a prayer, but really release that story so that you can make room for the new growth, just like they do in controlled fires where you burn what isn’t working. So that can be new growth. And so that’s that. If that’s a tool that resonates with you and that’s something I suggest.

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Speaker 2: Oh, thank you.

Amanda Ripley: I love this tip. We know that writing about hard things helps our brain. Reckon with them. So pick up that pencil again and write down the future that was supposed to happen. Then crinkle up that paper and throw it away or light it on fire and watch it burn for at least 90 seconds before safely putting it out. This is how you start to grieve your past and rewrite your future. But what happens when the smoke clears? How do we rise from the ashes and move on? That’s after the break.

Amanda Ripley: We’re back with Bernadette and Dr. Elizabeth Cohen, a practicing psychologist, author and host of the podcast The Divorced Doctor. You know, Dr. Cohen, I think you’ve said that money is never just about money. Now it is about money in the sense that, you know, you need to be able to to live. It’s important to try to sustain some similar standard of living so that you don’t feel like you’re just losing on all fronts. But also, is it important to think about what the money represents?

Speaker 3: Hmm. Yeah, I think it’s a really important thing to say that money is also money. It is a resource that people need and many people do not have enough. And so I feel like it’s important. Yes. To say that for sure. One of the things I wanted to say about the money decisions and also you mentioned like the legal decisions, it’s really important to understand. So in the trauma research, we understand there to be, you know, the traumas that we all kind of know about war, natural disasters, car accidents that we call actually big traumas, but we also now know research shows the impact of what we call little traumas, which are traumas that might seem less significant, but they emotionally impact us just like the big traumas. And I believe divorce is one of them. And it’s so many decisions you have to make financially to I go back to work. Do we do mediation or do we do litigation? Which lawyer do we pick? And when you’re going through a little trauma, the emotional part of your brain gets flooded with hormones, and it’s very hard for them to kind of communicate.

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Speaker 3: And so I always say whenever you’re trying to make a decision about finances, about your career, about law, which way to pursue legal counsel, always make sure to first regulate your nervous system, help your emotional brain decompress a little bit so that you can really communicate with your frontal lobes or your cognitive part of your brain. What does that look like? Things like meditation for you with a spiritual practice, it might be prayer. It can be breathing techniques.

Amanda Ripley: Am I right in saying that you had a way of doing this with with music? Can you tell us about this?

Speaker 3: Yeah, I do, especially with anger. So I put on a song. I always pick the same Rage Against the Machine song and I let my body move as it wants to, to the rageful music. I let my body experience that feeling physiologically instead of pushing it away. It’s another way of doing the 92nd experience.

Amanda Ripley: You said it’s Rage Against the Machine is which song. I want to make sure we got this right.

Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I do. Killing in the name of my day.

Speaker 2: Mom. Yeah.

Speaker 3: That’s my favorite. But like, there’s some Alicia Keys songs for sadness that’ll just bring me to my knees. You know, when I. When the pandemic started, I had felt this sadness in my chest that I couldn’t access. And the minute I put on actually an Andrea Day song called Rise Up.

Speaker 2: Yes.

Speaker 3: I just yeah, I just friggin melted on the floor and I just wept because I knew it needed to move through me.

Amanda Ripley: I love.

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Speaker 2: That. Oh, good. Uh.

Amanda Ripley: Interestingly, people used to think that you had to vent your rage to let it go, But the research has found that that’s just not true. Venting anger by, like, punching a pillow doesn’t actually help you feel any better, and it can actually make you more aggressive afterwards. So we’re going for something else here. We’re trying to let the feeling come and go. Don’t suppress it. Don’t marinate in it. And one way to do this is with music, but it’s not the only way.

Speaker 2: I did want to share one thing that was helpful when it came to regulation. And so if you if you think this is worth it. So oftentimes when I have discussions with Rodney, you know, over the telephone and and just hearing the voice, it makes me, you know, anxious because we’re going through a yucky time. And so what I do, I just tap I read something about tapping therapists. I just tap on my wrist. You’re here, you’re here, you’re alive. I love it. You know, just so I know, it’s like, oh, I want to sit here, you know, and shake or, you know, sweat. I just tap, tap, tap love. And that just that just really that helps. And I forget my spiritual practices because I’m. I’m in the moment, but not in the right way. Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 3: So absolutely, absolutely. Bernadette I was going to mention tapping earlier. Oh, good. But just know that what’s happening for you is exactly what happens, which is that when we feel the stress, that’s the moment that your frontal lobes are coming offline. It’s harder for you to feel present and make. You know, he might be asking you a very simple question and you can’t answer it because of that flood of emotion. So tapping is beautiful. I am here feeling your feet on the floor. I recommend this also, which is look for three red things. You can try it right now. It that look for three red things in the room that you’re in and just kind of look at them say. Say it to yourself. Notice the three things. Make sure you’re always also turning away. So you turn your neck. And now look for two to green things.

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Speaker 2: Mm hmm.

Speaker 3: And then one yellow.

Speaker 2: Am. I’m with you.

Speaker 3: That will orient you. Yeah, exactly. That will get you back into this moment to be able to think more clearly.

Amanda Ripley: Mm. I wonder. I wonder if you could speak a little bit about your own experience, Dr. Cohen, going through the financial and legal side of divorce. Like if you were to go in a time machine and give yourself advice to be.

Speaker 3: Yeah, that’s such a good question. I mean, first I just want to say to have someone who’s gone through a divorce is really helpful. Someone once said to me, It’s helpful to ask your lawyers if they’ve been through a divorce. It is different when you’ve gone through it. But I wish that I had been more connected to my own needs and I hadn’t been as reliant on what other people thought. And also this sense that there was a right and a wrong answer, that there was a right or a wrong way. There really wasn’t.

Speaker 3: I don’t have a lot of things I wish I had done differently, honestly, Amanda, because I have so much compassion for myself. But I did the best I could. But I do think that one of the smartest things I did was I. I had a six month old and a two year old when I asked my ex-husband to leave. So I really young kids by myself. And I just created a community. You know, I live in New York City. I went in the playground and I just my friends became my family. And I reached out for help and I asked for help. And those are things that I think were really valuable. And I think the hardest thing I did for myself was not be on my side and. And didn’t believe in myself, probably. Hmm.

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Amanda Ripley: Here’s our next insight. Find your people and lean on them. This can be a really lonely, disorienting time. In some cases, you’re in a brand new apartment. Or maybe you’ve stayed, but half the furniture is gone. Not to mention, your kids suddenly have two homes. Now is the time to be a little bolder, braver, and more specific when it comes to asking your friends and family for help because you’re going to need them, especially if things go south during the divorce itself.

Speaker 3: I mean, nobody wants the war because it is incredibly time consuming, obviously incredibly expensive and really impacts that life after divorce. I always recommend, if you can, to go to mediation and try that first because it is or collaborative law, which is a little different, that working together as a team, especially if you have kids, no matter how old they are, you’re going to have to collaborate for the rest of your life. And so a lot of pain and suffering can happen in the divorce process if it’s so adversarial.

Amanda Ripley: This is a point worth stressing. About a quarter of American divorces can be called high conflict, stuck in perpetual cycles of blame and hostility. In these divorces, everyone suffers, especially the kids. The conflict becomes all consuming. One reason this happens is because divorce for some reason happens through a lawsuit, which is madness. It’s inherently adversarial. That is a recipe for misery, because, as Dr. Cohen said, you still need to interact with your ex, even if your kids are grown. What if one of them gets married or has a baby or, God forbid, gets sick? So here’s the bottom line. If you can possibly manage it, opt out of the traditional adversarial system. Go for mediation or a collaborative divorce, which is, generally speaking, going to be much better for your family and your sanity.

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Speaker 3: It’s amazing what we asked people to go through through a divorce. Going back to your beautiful analogy of the birth, like we should have a maternity, like a divorce leave before we have to do anything like so we can focus on ourselves and heal ourselves and then make decisions. I mean, if I now, if I was getting divorced with all these years of healing, I would probably make a lot of different decisions. But I didn’t have the time to heal, unfortunately.

Amanda Ripley: So until you get that time to heal, it’s important to at least keep reminding yourself of what you do have instead of what you don’t financially.

Speaker 2: I have enough, no doubt about it. I have enough, especially given, you know, the state of the world. I have enough. I have plenty. And what I’m grieving is, you know what? I’m giving up. Because it certainly it certainly affects me a lot more than it affects Rodney. And fortunately, I know the kids will be taken care of because the kids will be supported by Rodney’s, you know, earning potential and all of that. So that gives me hope. I have enough for him to live on comfortably for myself, but I won’t have the legacy to share that Rodney would have provided. Hmm.

Speaker 3: Okay. Well, I have a lot of things to say about this. First, I want you to keep repeating what you said to yourself. Every morning I have enough. I have earning potential. You said Rodney has earning potential. You have earning potential. And again, with some of these affirmations, we don’t have to believe them right away. We just keep telling them to ourselves. So that’s important. And when you say, I won’t have a legacy girl, you gave those kids leg. Are you kidding me? Like, who those kids are is your legacy. You raised them. You stood by them like there’s different kinds of legacy. Watch the focus of it only being the financial legacy.

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Speaker 2: Thank you. Yes, yes, yes. Because they’re socially rich and spiritually rich. Yes, That’s good. Thank you.

Speaker 3: And money can never buy that, I promise you, does not buy spiritual fulfillment, happiness, emotional fulfillment.

Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Dr. Cohen. You provided for me just what I needed. When I reached out to how to, I thought, okay, how do you do these things in all these different areas? But I’ve never heard this. Can you help me with this? And the answer was yes. With the practical guidance that you provided, I can’t thank you enough.

Speaker 3: Oh, it’s been my pleasure.

Amanda Ripley: If you had to pick a song to process, whether it’s anger or sadness or grief, does any song come to mind?

Speaker 2: Of course. Something inside so strong.

Speaker 4: The higher your build, your barriers. The taller I.

Speaker 2: Become.

Speaker 4: The farther you take my rights away.

Speaker 2: The faster Ray will run to something inside so strong, I know that I can make it. But you’re doing me wrong. So wrong. You thought that my pride was gone. Oh, no. Something inside so strong. Brothers and sisters, when they insist, we’re just not good enough. You look him in the eye and say, I’m going to do it anyway as there’s.

Speaker 4: Something inside so strong. I’m not. I can.

Speaker 2: Make. You didn’t do anything wrong, sir.

Speaker 4: You thought that my pride was gone.

Speaker 2: Do something and stop. So strong. Haven’t played it yet, but when I do, it will be very loud. May get arrested for noise pollution, but it will certainly be worth it.

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Amanda Ripley: Awesome. I’m so glad that you reached out to us.

Speaker 2: Yes. I can’t thank you and your producers enough for making this happen. And I appreciate that. You know, at the end when you do your podcast, you think you have a show idea. Call this number. You know, I would say it really works. And because that day I was like, Darn it. What do I do next? So I called and to get the call back and have me just be a part of this, I just can’t thank you enough for this opportunity.

Amanda Ripley: Bernadette. This is what we live for. We are so glad that you reached out and the rest of you should to send us a note at how to at Slate.com. Or leave us a voicemail at 6464954001. We’re here to make life a little less bumpy or at least play your favorite song. Thanks again to Bernadette and to Dr. Elizabeth Cohen. We’ll link to her podcast, The Divorce Doctor and her book Light at the Other Side of Divorce Discovering the New You. What about you?

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Amanda Ripley: How TOS Executive producer is Derek John, Rosemary Belson and Kevin Bendis produce the show. Mari Jacob is senior technical director. Charles DeWitt created the show. I’m Amanda Ripley. Thanks for listening.

Speaker 4: To me a all saying you saw. In my devotion. Laid out on your chest. What was he like? Paul.

Speaker 4: You could call.