Slate Money Goes to the Movies: Indecent Proposal

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S1: This ad free podcast is part of your Slate plus membership.

S2: Hello and welcome to the Indecent Proposal episode of Slate Money goes to the movies. I’m Felix Salmon of Axios. I’m here with Alan Shamansky of Breakingviews. Hello. This is going to be I’m sorry to everyone else on this series, but this is going to be the best episode of Slate. Money goes to the movies because we have Tavey brought us. Agnete Taffy, welcome.


S3: It is so good to be here.

S2: We are going to overthink Indecent Proposal. The 1993 was a movie by Adrian Allen. Is he

S3: English? I mean, sure. His name’s Adrian.

S2: His name’s Adrian. It’s got to be some guy called Adrian made a movie. It has Demi Moore and Robert Redford and Woody Harrelson and people having sex on cash and people having sex for cash and lots of kind of weird fucked up attitudes towards money and women. We are going to talk all about it. This is, I promise you, the best episode of Money of the Year. So enjoy. It’s all coming up on Slate. Money goes to the movies.


S3: How about you say that to all the girls?

S2: OK, Taffy, tell me, how old were you and where were you when you first saw Indecent Proposal, which is the best name for a movie ever?

S3: It’s the best name. And I have to tell you how Indecent Proposal has followed me into my journalism career. It comes out more than you would think. But first, I’ll answer your question. I will tell you that it was 1993. I had just graduated from high school. I saw it at the Sheepshead Bay United Artists movie. And as you know, I was raised in a very religious home. And so movies were really important to me because they were there to show me how I was going to live eventually. And when I find decent proposal, it was like one of the things that could possibly happen in my life. Like one day if I needed money, maybe I’d end up on a boat spending a night with somebody for a million dollars. And like all these years later, you know, I did that sugar daddy story. And I do think I do the sugar daddy story from GQ. And I remember speaking to some sociological or psychological expert on the sugar daddy phenomenon. And whereas I kind of saw Indecent Proposal way back in 1993 at the UA in Sheepshead Bay, I saw it as like romantic. Now I see it as this woman who is just like abused from all sides. She’s like a victim. She has no agency. She ends up with a guy who doesn’t even want her. He just wants her because she he couldn’t have her. And that’s like the sugar daddy phenomenon is finding out what somebody’s morality or their values are and trying to see if you could get them to subvert it for money. It’s not, of course, across the board sex work. It’s this small avenue of like sugar daddy ism where it’s, oh, you said you wouldn’t do that. How about for this? And that’s the kink.


S2: Wow. So that’s the whole point of sugar. That is right, is that if you if you have like what are they called sugar babies. If you have a sugar baby who would do it for nothing, then that defeats the purpose.

S3: That’s a

S2: girlfriend. That’s just a girlfriend. And who wants a girlfriend. The whole point is that you’re getting something for money. You’re like paying for whatever it is you’re getting. And that’s that’s the thrill in

S3: this in this slim avenue of this thing. It’s not how sex work works. And surely no one in twenty twenty one would say that men who seek a sex worker are people who need to do that. There’s just this slim thing that I have learned since and now in re watching this movie that, of course, took place in a universe of infinite possibility for young Taffy Eichner, yeshiva graduate. I’m really, really shocked. I’m really shocked at what a disturbing movie it is.


S1: You’re the one who has to buy women you think have to buy women. I mean, I thought you because you said you couldn’t be bought. I can’t be bothered. We’re just going to fuck, as I understand it. Might enjoy it. Don’t bet on it.

S4: I think it will.

S3: Can I tell you how it comes up in my journal? So, as you know, I do a fair amount of celebrity profiles and the phenomenon that happens 15 minutes before the person shows up is that I am sitting there and like clockwork, a publicist calls me and says to me, hey, I just wanted to make sure you found the place and everything’s going OK. And I say everything’s so far going great. He hasn’t arrived. It’s usually he he hasn’t arrived. But I’m sitting here waiting and I’m looking forward to it. And then the publicist always says the same thing. She is. She says, Oh, I forgot to tell you. He doesn’t want to talk about his personal life. And and I’m so prepared for this totally bonkers thing that a person is saying to me 15 minutes before a personal profile that I’m about to write is that this is what I say. I say, let me quote my favorite movie, Indecent Proposal to you. Nothing will happen that he didn’t want to happen. I don’t think that’s so funny. And they’re like upset or shocked, but I have to go because I now see him coming down the way. And so this movie is kind of always with me. And I think about it a lot because I quote that one very disturbing quote a lot. And in my head, I had remembered it as something that was like that. He says that he’s like, I just want to spend the night with her. She doesn’t have to do anything. And now in watching it, I’m like, oh, there was there was a sex contract. Oh, there was a sex contract. And of course, he says that and he’s like, I’m not going to rape her, but I do have a sex contract. She has agreed to this. It’s a very confusing movie on a lot of levels. My husband watched it with me. We kept trying to figure out what the genre of it is. What would you say the genre of Indecent Proposal is?


S5: I think it has a multiple genre, and I think that’s part of the issue with this film is that it doesn’t it doesn’t know what it wants to be.

S2: I would definitely put it in like the interior design porn genre.

S3: Really? Because he’s an architect.

S2: Well, I mean, OK, so can

S3: I see my her yet? Please.

S2: Please, can I tell you my number one favorite Easter egg in this whole movie, please? I’m pretty sure I did see this movie many years ago and then promptly forgot it. And then obviously we watched it for this. Did you see

S3: the Sheepshead Bay United?

S2: I think it was definitely not in Sheepshead Bay and I did not dream to myself that one day I could I could find I didn’t


S3: dream of it. It just might happen

S2: in the

S3: world. You never know what is going to happen.

S2: But my favorite little Easter egg is the after they get the million dollars and they have a slightly less hand-to-mouth existence than they can afford to live in a nice place with a back garden where they grow vegetables, yeah, they can afford decent furniture. Then they have a fight. And then when they have the fight, she slouches back into her designer chair. That happens to be just sitting there because obviously your home and you have a chair when you slouch into your chair and you cry. And the chair she slouches into is this very, very famous Frank Gehry cardboard chair, which is in many museums. And the name of this, Frank Gehry called Boyscout. They clearly bought with the million dollars is the little beaver chair.


S5: What it’s so funny you mention that because I had a note when I was like watching the film that was like, what’s up with the weird chair?

S3: That’s so funny. I mean, it comes at you pretty fast.

S5: It’s maybe like taking a little bit of a step back in terms of the financial angles on this here film.

S3: I have plenty on that. Are you referring to when they have sex on a waterbed with cash?

S5: I think it’s very practical, very practical. They need that money.

S1: What do

S3: you do? I got the financial surprise,

S5: like all that money stuff.

S1: I mean, money is so


S3: dirty from you know,

S2: I just it’s it’s such a crazy scene that they’re like we are so happy about having made some money at the craps table or whatever it was that we are going to have sex on banknotes

S3: on a waterbed. I mean, it could have gone wrong.

S5: Very, very wrong.

S2: How could it have not gone wrong? One of those Benjamins is going to wind up somewhere. You do not want to do that.

S3: What if there’s a leak and your money, you’ve torn up some money. OK, OK. But we were going to talk. We’re going to be good. And I have a no,


S2: no, no. We are not going to be good. We we’re going to be bad. I didn’t

S3: pick this up so we could be good and

S1: I’m sorry.

S5: But look, clearly this. Came out in nineteen ninety three, it directly references the recession that has just occurred, and the film is also all about like land and real estate, which is also obviously significant because you had real estate kind of collapse in the late 80s, partly savings and loan crisis and a number of other causes. And this is also after you have this 1980s boom where you have this burst of wealth creation, kind of the rise of finance, but also the rise of inequality and the rise in this kind of new class of people who have a lot of money and people don’t quite understand how they made it. And I think this film is definitely touching on all of that.


S2: So, yeah, Robert Redford is like his only job is billionaire. That’s the only thing he does. He like what?

S5: He signed some

S2: paper. He’s actually in this in this he’s even less visible backstory or business or corporation or anything like that than Christian Grey, you know, in 50 Shades of Grey, who’s a

S3: smart

S2: businessman. But at least there’s a hint in there of like, you know, he runs a company or something. That’s not even the hint that he runs a company, the only person he employs, just like his driver. It was

S3: just what does that guy

S5: he’s just like, what is the

S3: driver is gross. The driver is like acquisitions.

S5: I don’t know if maybe this was just me, but I also whatever I was seeing, Robert Redford couldn’t like not not see Jay Gatsby, especially because, like, there are scenes where like he’s literally like in a white suit by a pool the way his house looks. I was just like it. Obviously it’s Robert Redford who played Gatsby. So I was also wondering if maybe it was somehow trying to come.

S3: It’s very interesting that you say that, because when I was looking at Robert Redford, all I could see was Robert Redford. But now this like Parallax view of adulthood, of having done like ten disgusting stories in Vegas. Right. Like, I know the guy who sits at that table and calls women over and that guy is disgusting. And what it speaks to of the time is that we did not know that that guy was not a Robert Redford type. That’s bad casting. That guy is like the sleaziest like Robert Redford really classes up the roll. It’s not a Robert Redford role.


S2: We have what he says is terrible, right? He clearly considers women to just be the property of their husbands and something that the husband can just kind of sign up.

S3: Your wife said you weren’t for sale.

S1: It’s really

S2: horrible.

S5: Yeah, I think it was. They were very conscious in terms of casting Redford because there was literally a scene where he says, like, you want to not be attracted to me. Like he represents this kind of like, you know, you’re supposed to be repelled by this thing, but you’re actually attracted to it. And then you hate yourself for being attracted to it.

S3: And she’s like, no, I wasn’t built that complicatedly. I’m actually quite two dimensional and I’m going to go from wearing shorts to carrying a parasol by the end of this movie. I have no in our life. Like, that’s the thing that bothers me about her the most is that there’s like nothing to her. She makes no decisions. She only exists in the category of woman who is designed to root for her husband and help him realize his dream.

S5: Oh, yeah. No, I mean, I agree. I mean, this is I think this film is really like trying to have it both ways. On one hand, it’s trying to be like, oh, no, we’re showing you how horrible it is that women are treated this way. But yet the film itself is treating.

S3: I don’t think the film is trying to show you that the women, they’re like, look, look what you could do with a woman.

S1: Suppose I were to offer you one million dollars. For one night with your wife. I assume you’re kidding. Let’s pretend I’m not. What would you say? He tell you to go to hell? I didn’t hear him. I tell you to go to hell.


S2: Can I come in here and try and put forward the thesis that there is actually a feminist subtext to this movie?

S3: I would love that. That’s hilarious,

S2: Felix. I mean, OK, maybe a little bit of a stretch, but to me, what’s the name, Diana? Yes. Number one, it’s her idea to do this. She actually has agency throughout. She decides that she’s going to sleep with him. She decides that she’s going to continue to see him. She decides that she’s going to leave him and go back to husband number one. And she is the only person who’s really capable of making any decisions or making anything happen. And she ultimately. Winds up with. What she wanted all along, which was like I did that thing that I needed to do with that guy, it wasn’t so bad. And then I wound up with my husband. The only problem to her plan was that her husband got all jealous and shit and then she had to go the 40 nights in the wilderness waiting for him to come around to realize that he left her after all. And then she’s like, right now I get what I wanted all along. And she had much more control over everything than anyone else. And I will just note that the real estate brokerage where she worked, I know what you’re saying. What is her colleague reading as she walks into the brokerage?

S5: Susan Faludi’s Backlash,

S2: the great feminist book of the 1990s? I don’t

S3: know.

S5: The other thing I kind of wonder because I actually have very similar thoughts to what you’re saying you like. So I think there’s something that I also wonder if this was trying to make a comment on Pretty Woman, because this came out not long after Pretty Woman. And there are a number of scenes in this film that seem to be direct references, right.


S3: When like a pretty middle class white woman walks into the Vegas store and the saleswoman looks her up and down like she’s this menis. Right. And she doesn’t even see her steal the chocolate. But that doesn’t really happen back then. Like in Vegas, like you wouldn’t see a woman dressed kind of downmarket walking to your store. It’s Vegas.

S5: There’s no goes into those stores.

S1: There’s always a but

S2: also like Vegas is the one place where you can never tell how much money someone is worth by looking at them. And this was the other thing which the movie Overegg the Pudding so much in terms of the costume design, the the noble, you know, middle class strivers, all they can wear is like the same clothes they’ve been wearing since they were 19 and they can never afford anything so baggy. They’re perfectly happy. And they’re like, you know, I mean, poor, poor Woody Harrelson can barely afford a shirt. He’s like topless. And meanwhile, the minute you become a billionaire, suddenly you’re swinging around in perfect suits and looking very swanky the whole time. And you have to drive in your Rolls-Royce and have the expensive, expensive, expensive everything. And like the only purpose of money is to buy expensive stuff that doesn’t look particularly desirable. Right. And she then starts like dating this guy. And the minute she starts dating him, she’s like, oh, yeah, I’m going to throw away all of my varsity sweaters or whatever and start wearing protection.

S3: Now, I dress fancy. I’ve always been fancy.

S2: But did she want to do that? Was that was never really


S3: I mean, this is the same era, I think the same era of Rocky five where Rocky loses all of his money. And part of losing all your money in the world of Rocky five means that Adrian’s contact lenses are somehow confiscated and she’s back to wearing her cat eyes from when she worked at the pet store. So it doesn’t have to make sense. I like what you’re saying. I wish it were true, but I have to say that, like, I think it’s a little bit wishful thinking. She does not have agency as much as she’s been written by people who don’t want to make them. Men look so bad. And in the end, the men look

S2: terrible,

S3: though. But he gets to do the hero thing in the end, Woody Harrelson, he gets to give back the million dollars. And that is what brings me here to your podcast today, is the idea that money has a moral value and that how you acquire it can poison you to the point where you have to get rid of it. I in 1993 watched that and said, thank God he gave back that money so that they could she could be with that guy again. And now I look at it and I think all that you went through and you don’t even get the million dollars, which now I know isn’t a million dollars. It’s after taxes. It’s five hundred that like I can’t bear to take

S2: after the for the little beaver chaired by Frank Gehry. I mean, obviously

S3: that has to be on a payment plan. Right.

S5: That’s they also spent the money on a hippo.


S3: The fact that the romantic gesture in the end is a hippo, I don’t know what that means. I just know that the thing that is remarkable to me is that like sitting there watching that movie when I was young, I hoped I would have money. I did not have money growing up. And now I look at that and I say the amount of art that I have been exposed to, where in the only way to clean your soul is to get rid of the money. It would be unforgivable if I did this in my marriage, if I again had had since had seen life through and ended up on the boat with my new dress. And my high heels and looking out onto the ocean and had done my thing that I only would do if I if I wanted to do it despite my sex contract, I would say that if I gave up the money or if my husband was like, I’m sorry, I can’t live like this, I’m giving up the money, I’d be like, how could you have put me through that and not keep the money? Like, I really believe that all of the movies around that time gave me such a fucked up idea of how money was supposed to play into my life in this moralistic way. And I would grow up to be a person who had to decide if, like as a freelance writer, I was writing some things that I did not love putting the old byline on, and they still exist somewhere. And in the end, would I ever give up that money because I didn’t like the way I earned it. I used to have to do stuff for women’s magazines where I would have to ask women what they hated about their bodies. Like I committed so many feminist offensive in the name of like a woman’s magazine profile. And I’m so glad I at least got the money because I feel so bad about it that if I did it for nothing and that was the lesson of that movie and that’s the lesson of money in movies, that it doesn’t solve your problems. When I would like to say I think it does. And like I know that’s not a popular thing to say, but but this conversation did not start today. It started back when you expressed some curiosity as to why I find the wealth on succession aspirational. And I do have a sense of self-awareness. But for anybody who grew up poor, like who cares? Not that you hurt people to get the money. It’s that once the money is there, you cannot become a better person by getting rid of it because you could never have undone those things. And the only thing that will actually help you move forward is the comfort that money provides you with money, gives you space and money, gives you time to think about who you want to be and what your standards are. Most of this country is too frenzied in making money to actually think about what their values are around it. And I just want to say that Indecent Proposal did not help.


S2: So, Taffy, this is an absolutely astonishing insight. And I can’t believe I wasn’t thinking about it when I saw the movie. But you’re absolutely right. This is a cliche in movies that the way you cleanse yourself is by giving away the tainted money. And I’m sure you can think of half a dozen movies off the top of your head which have this trope. And it actually finds its way into real life, right. Where politicians will return donations from people if they don’t, if that person turns out, I got I received a donation from Harvey Weinstein. Now I need to return that donation. They’ll do something with it. Take that money to go.

S3: Take that money. Weinstein’s money. Are you crazy? He has so much money. Keep it and use it for your cause and get elected for your amazing cause.

S5: But I think you are hitting on something that is definitely present in so many films, films like the idea of work. But they don’t always like the idea of money and they’re very suspicious of characters that have too much money.

S3: And they’re made by people with so much, so much money. They’re made by people who cannot, if they were ever poor, cannot remember being poor, they can’t remember any of it. So how dare they how dare they, like, spray this through the land? My kids have two journalist parents and, you know, they wanted to when they grow up. We used to think that we were setting such a good example where, like, we are going to show them that you do the thing that matters to you. And they’re like, I don’t know. It seems like our friends, whose parents are lawyers, they see their parents more. Their parents are calmer and not as worried. I really do think that we that through our art, we talk about how money is something that has to have a moral value to it and how it’s acquired. And I’m not talking about like a cartel. I’m talking about like the gradations between nebulous billionaire and striving architect. Right?


S2: Oh, my God. The whole architect thing. I mean,

S3: the whole architect

S2: thing. What is this like? This is the second coming of John Gold here.

S3: And then you see his design. They dare to show you his design. It’s like when you’re

S2: designing this just like a weird hodgepodge of random promo. But like what you said about the people who are making the movie being like just insanely rich. Is surgery just because none of the sums of money in this movie make any sense, like a struggling couple, and they suddenly managed to buy themselves like a waterfront property in Santa Monica and build a house on it, which they get like a mortgage that they only need fifty thousand dollars to pay it off. But then there’s a demand note that the bank calls. And you know what a demand note is.

S3: I mean, I think that the problem with that plot is that after the housing crisis, we all know it. We know that that couldn’t have happened, right?

S2: Yeah. There’s like there’s

S3: no way we can. And they missed their foreclosure.

S2: But but there’s no world in which you can buy a Santa Monica property for whatever. I guess the implication is for some kind of six figure sum. And there’s no way that that world can also be a world where one million dollars is quote. And I’m quoting Robert Redford here, a lifetime of security.

S3: Well, maybe in Robert Redford’s defense, he did not know that they had their eyes on it under. Can we go back to the Santa Monica property because it’s an undiscovered. She discovers that at Santa Monica beachfront property is the Welsford in the wilderness.


S2: And she no one knew about Santa Monica in 1993. I know it was

S3: late, but if this it leads to this huge body of water, the pioneers found it.

S2: But this is also a world where apparently, if you’re a billion, that you are effortlessly elegant in all things and you have a yacht and a helicopter and everything, and then you have your million dollar per night girlfriend and you decide that the thing that you want her to do is wear stilettos on a boat

S3: like you want to dress her up. It was like that’s that was like the weird controlling. That’s why I think she had no agency.

S2: If she’d done that succession thing and been like, sails out, nails out, you have

S1: a succession

S3: plan, at least honest. It’s at least honest about it’s greed. And this like, by the way, I just want to say that when he does his thing at the end, Robert Redford, where he’s like trying to get her to break up with him by saying, like, isn’t she the best of the million dollar club? And she’s like, Robert Redford, you’re just trying to let me go back to my husband. And they leave her on the side of the road with her white dress and parasol like they don’t say, can I drop you somewhere if I remember? There are no phones. There are no Hubers. She’s on the side of the Malibu Highway, like teetering in her heels. Like, what is she going to do when she gets to that pier? What is her plan? Is she going to live on that pier?

S5: Nothing really in this movie makes a tremendous amount of sense. I think especially the second half of the film, like I mean, the stuff of the first half of the film makes sense. But at least like there’s some consistency in tone, I guess. And then like it or at least you can kind of understand what the film is getting at, whether or not you may disagree. I mean, I don’t particularly love the film he’s saying, but like you understand, and then the second half, there are scenes that just really belong in a different movie. Like the one that really jumped out at me was where she’s teaching a citizenship class and Robert Redford and it’s like out of a romantic comedy. And I’m just like, what am I understand? Like, they wanted to make comments about, like the American Dream. But I’m like, this makes no sense. Like did I also don’t understand that not everyone is going to be eating like lunch or dinner. And just there is


S3: no way she knew where to find him for lunch. But the citizenship thing was straight out of, I think, parenthood. Listen, I would like for you guys in real time to reconsider your your statements about feminism, because I would like to say that I went to film school and I have been listening to people argue feminist points of view of Adrian Linda movies since that very next year, 1994, like Fatal Attraction. I don’t like I don’t know. I think that the hero of that is Michael Douglas.

S5: I think, though, this film is like it goes back to that. It’s trying to have it both ways, like it’s trying to be a feminist film. It’s trying to say that she’s the one who has agency. But then the way the film is actually structured removes all of her agency and just makes her an object. Right.

S2: The only thing we need to know to know that this is not a feminist movie is like at the beginning of the movie, she’s like very organized and she buys the property in Santa Monica. Right. And Woody Harrelson is like, oh, my God, she’s very good at money. She organizes the whole thing. I’m I’m just the dumb, dumb architect. And I just. By it, she wears the pants in the family, that kind of thing. Then she loses her job, he loses his job, and then she says, quote, I wrote this down because it was it was such a timeless quote. She says, quote, David, I’m scared we don’t have any money. What are we going to do? Like the one thing that no woman has ever said in the history of the world, what are we going to do? Is at that point, you’re like, OK, this this is I don’t know who put those words in her mouth, but there’s no way that person can ever be considered a feminist. Right?


S3: I mean, are also like she’s traded for sex in order to help her husband realize his dream. But of what? Of building that, like middling house. I mean, the truth is, is that this is a thing that bothers me. Like you could write a book about the most beautiful house in the world and you could write a book about the most beautiful music in the world. But if you’re going to make a movie about those things, you have to make sure that house is beautiful. That house was not even like that is fine. And actually, I could see that house in Santa Monica, but it is not a house like he won’t work.

S2: He didn’t even need

S3: to build a house of dreamer men where the woman is like doing something adjacent to the job so that he doesn’t have to like, you know what, I’m forty five now. Back when I saw that it was this bill of goods, it was almost I can’t tell you how many friends I have who work at while their husbands were trying to figure out their dreams. And like where did we all get that from? From Indecent Proposal.

S2: And plus the other thing is that he apparently, even when he wasn’t building his dream house in Santa Monica, he managed to build an amazing portfolio of other buildings and houses, which got him an award. And this is my favorite thing, the free of Rome, which is an architecture prize. But I looked it up. It’s an architecture prize, which the last time it was ever given out was 1967

S3: until him, until David Murphy. And by the way, can we just say about Woody Harrelson, poor Woody Harrelson, who is really kind of trying to figure out who he could be having just been Woody on Cheers, a character that they couldn’t even divert his name because like he was supposed to be such an idiot, like there was some real whiplash in 1993 to see him as an architect, like they put glasses on him. They gave him a shirt with a collar. But it was like, I know a little my grandmother was an architect. And I mean, architecture is like really just doing a lot of math all the time. And she had a lot of different kinds of jobs.


S2: She didn’t pin pieces of paper to the wall and attacked them with charcoal.

S3: She didn’t. And she and like no one ever like, sat on her lap and, like, gazed up at her while she worked. They were like, where’s dinner? I know you’re an architect, but it’s dinner time.

S2: At least Robert Redford was like doing the whole Robert Redford thing and being the movie star Paul Woody Harrelson. Like he’s just so out of place in this movie.

S3: How old was Robert Redford when he did that?

S5: He’s like mid, mid 50s also.

S3: Can we talk about the blowing on the dice? This is what I would have thought if I was an especially I’m doing as you know, I’m doing some screenwriting now. And I would say that if I presented in the first act someone who was asked to blow on the dice for a man who had ten thousand dollar chips and money is no object to him. Can’t you just say, can I have three of those? I will blow on your dice five times. Can I have three of those or five of those? You have so many of them. That’s what I would have done.

S5: And I think like maybe like.

S3: But do you know if

S2: she’s playing that she’s playing the long game. She’s playing the long con taffy like she’s in it for the full million. The only mistake they made was not getting Oliver Platt to negotiate the deal.

S1: Let me get this straight. He offered you a million dollars for a night with your wife, as in your wife, Diana, and you agreed to it. I don’t know what to say. How could you do something like that? How could you negotiate without me? Never negotiate without your lawyer. Never for a woman like Diana could have gotten only two million.


S3: He was the only honest person. It’s true in that movie. It’s like the best character in he was.

S2: But apropos like Anna’s point about like this is the first sort of post yuppie movie, right? He’s the he’s the successful lawyer. He’s made the money. He’s unashamedly not you know, he’s not a billionaire, but he’s got all the. He needs

S3: a StairMaster

S2: he flaunts he’s got his leg, I’m sure he has an Audi in the garage or whatever, you know, his character is again, like flat as a pancake and there’s no character arc and no depth to it. But at least you know who that is. You’re absolutely right that Robert Redford’s character, who’s like, if you were mine, like if I owned you, I wouldn’t let you sleep with anyone. And you’re like,

S1: what you doing? I mean, the lions the

S2: lions coming out of his mouth is so

S3: crazy,

S2: horrible that you really need to be Robert Redford in order for that character not to just be the biggest villain in the world.

S3: I guess so. Like, that was a real desert in the 90s of like. Did Robert Redford know he was an indecent proposal? Did he like was he like, this is going to be great? Or was he sitting there? He was like, I was in Butch Cassidy and I was in the casting and getting old sucks. Is that what he was saying? Or was he like, I’m with this edgy director and I get to own Demi Moore for a night?

S5: He probably was like, I want to buy a new boat or something. I mean, like, I’m sure it was a paycheck. It was like like Marlon Brando wasn’t Superman or


S3: he was funding indie film. He’s like, I’m going to use this money and start and like fund.

S2: What proportion of the budget of this movie just went to Robert Redford?

S3: I mean, Demi Moore, I feel like was a very high value. Like she had this real moment right then. Right. Like she was G.I. Jane right around then. She was striptease right around then. Like she really was the emblem of this early nineties power woman. She was a disclosure, which would have been my other choice. By the way,

S2: you had so many choices.

S3: I had so many choices.

S2: Honestly, this entire season should have just been Taffy talks about movies because

S3: I’m obsessed with money and I’m a good movie watcher. But also I really have a lot of opinions about the way money was marketed to me as a concept and the way that, like the bills of goods that I was sold throughout my life, no one ever told me about comfort they gave me. They like if you do the thing you love, that will be enough. And I wish I had been given more of a choice, which is not to say I’m complaining, but I do work really long hours. And I do think that, like, the more I look at the way it is for people who work very hard and who who work successfully in this particular time line, if you didn’t have an inheritance, if you didn’t have someone buy you a house, if you didn’t have someone who let you know that your survival was assured, these movies did, you know, good. They told you that you that like a sort of middle class happiness was guaranteed to you and that the only time you would end up on a boat like that is if you needed a million dollars for Santamonica property when really you’re kind of on that boat all the time.


S1: I don’t know. Oh, my heavens. We live our life.

S2: We are all we are all of us on that boat. Oh, my God. This is post Yepez. It was post Wall Street, the movie. It was it was great. It was actually it was greed is bad and it was but it was also pre like property bubbles. The property was a consumption

S3: not very

S5: well because you’d had part of the reason you have the savings and loan crisis is because you had massive increase in property value and like Texas that they invested in that collapsed. And that was part of what caused the crisis

S2: right outside of Houston. But, yeah, I feel like I feel like the idea that, like, you would get you would buy a house and pay the mortgage and then within a few years, suddenly, like, you’d made more money on the equity in your house than you ever had, like working for a living that was still a decade away when this when this movie was made.

S5: Yeah. I mean, I think but the house was supposed to signify like security and the security was being taken from them

S2: because there was a demand. No, I need to I need to a demand.

S3: No demand.

S2: It’s a demand note. It’s this very obscure financial instrument. It’s only ever really written between close friends or family members. So it’s basically, you know, Anna comes to me and she’s like, I need two hundred thousand dollars to buy this house. And I’m like, OK, I’m going to give you two hundred thousand dollars. And I don’t really expect you to pay it back, but like, we’re going to pay for this up just so it’s not income for you, it’s a loan. You owe me the money back. Technically, I can ask for the money back. Whenever I want, but you trust me not to ask for the money back because I’m your friend. That’s what a demand


S3: is, a demand note is, what is that? You trust me, not me.

S2: Like basically, quote unquote, lending the money to Anna and then end up paying it back to me. Like when she finally can more or less on her terms is not something you get from a bank. And it’s not something where the bank will suddenly turn up and go, Well, I used to be your best friend. You know, I’m pulling in this demand, though. And so now you’re broke and I can see why

S3: you’re so close. Why couldn’t they just say you haven’t paid in a couple of months and we’re taking it back because

S5: then the film wouldn’t be able to get to the next scene

S2: because they were spending so much time in Las Vegas that like, you know, they missed the whole foreclosure proceedings. I think we should wrap this up with the question we always need to ask at the end of these shows, which is, is this a good movie? And you think it’s not right?

S5: No, no, it’s I do not think it’s a very good movie.

S3: Taffy Claude and I determined it was erotic. Bohrer Like instead of a thriller, it

S1: was

S2: erotic boredom.

S3: Is this a great movie? It is not a good movie. However, will I still quote it when publicists call me and say he doesn’t want to talk about his private life? I will proudly

S2: and you will say you won’t need to do anything that you don’t want to do over the

S3: line. I’ll say let me quote my favorite movie, Indecent Proposal to you. Nothing will happen that he didn’t want to happen.


S2: I mean, that’s the question, right? That’s the big question mark. You question in the center of the movie. Did she do something that she wanted to do?

S3: It’s a trick question. She had no. Once she did, she was not developed enough to have

S1: a

S3: what? Did you like it? I loved it.

S2: I didn’t love it. But I found it much easier to watch than I thought I would like. It’s definitely a movie that I wasn’t, like, sort of pausing and going, why am I watching this? This is terrible. It had forward momentum.

S3: What movies have you done where that has been the problem?

S2: I’ll tell you the movie that I really got, like sick of watching halfway through and I was just like, do I need to watch this was there will be blood.

S3: I just recently tried to watch it and I remember it being OK with it. And I was like, who? Who chose that?

S2: OK, that I will tell you this, this is the only movie in the entire season, I’m pretty sure, where the guest chose a movie that she had not seen before.

S3: And she chose

S2: that and she was like, everyone tells me, this is a very important movie and I really need an excuse to watch it. So I’m going to pick this movie and that’s going to force me to watch it. That was how there will be blood.

S3: Maybe what a cell I runnerup was masquerade because I could speak also a lot about like I mean, I’ve been to the Hamptons twice in my life, but the genre of Hamptons social climbing movies are Chayefsky’s.

S2: I don’t believe that you’re working all the time to Tavey because I think you’re watching movies all the time. You have watched every single movie ever made.

S3: But I went to film school. I don’t have a basic education. I don’t know history,

S1: but I know movie.

S2: It was fantastic having you on TV.

S1: Thank you guys.