How To Restore Nature in the Heart of a City

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Speaker 1: Felix is going to run Point Asia comes today for the interview. Okay, great. Get out of line. That’s right.

Amanda Ripley: It’s going to escort me.

Speaker 1: Yes.

Amanda Ripley: Hopefully one of us will get in trouble for this interview with our.

Speaker 1: Yes, I know. Absolutely.

Amanda Ripley: You’re listening to How To I’m Amanda Ripley. So the other day I went on a walk up the street to visit a neighbor. Kind of like Mister Rogers, but without the cardigan.

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Speaker 1: Here we are.

Amanda Ripley: We are delighted to be here for many reasons. But Jacques Pitteloud, who is the Swiss ambassador to the United States and he and I are sitting in his formal modern dining room in the official ambassador’s residence, which includes a really large plot of open land behind it, right in the middle of Washington, D.C.. And it’s got just a stunning view. I’ve walked by this property countless times, but this is the first time I’m actually past the gate.

Speaker 1: We are on one of the few hills from whence one can see the the Washington Monument. And the urban legend is that it was one of the places that had been picked to to to build the capital. And then they realized it was too far away from this one.

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Amanda Ripley: Ambassador Pete Lu first joined the Swiss Foreign Service in 1987, and since then, he has worked all over the world from Kenya to Rwanda, Saudi Arabia. Diplomacy can be a pretty stressful line of work, so the ambassador often turns to nature for relief, particularly birdwatching.

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Speaker 1: And so two weeks ago I was looking for the morning warbler. It’s difficult, and you’ll have to be extremely lucky to be at the right spot. Right moment. So I drove for hours. I was there. I was studying at 2:00 in the morning. I was there at 6:00 when when you get a chance to it to it to hear it. Got my pictures of the morning world. It was the last one I didn’t have, you know, from the region.

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Amanda Ripley: So it’s a little bit like a very peaceful form of hunting.

Speaker 1: It’s something, yeah, we don’t get it, but it’s the same instinct. And I do imagine it’s the same, you know, release of adrenaline. Yeah. Oh, my God. You know, the morning warbler. Got it, you know, so.

Amanda Ripley: I thought it is. Yeah. Is that how it felt? Like just euphoria when you go.

Speaker 1: Oh, yes, indeed. Oh, yes, indeed.

Amanda Ripley: So if you could take me back to the first day you saw the property here, the ambassador’s residence in Washington, can you describe what you saw and what your initial reaction was?

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Speaker 1: I was amazed by the beauty of the whole setting. The building is extraordinary. The view is fantastic. I was also struck by the fact that we had a very big plot. I don’t know exactly how many acres, but it’s pretty big and that it looked like a golf course and they don’t like golf courses. They look good, but there are ecological disasters.

Amanda Ripley: So as we heard in last week’s episode, turns out the grass lawns are total wastelands. From a biodiversity perspective, they need 1 to 1 and a half inches of rain per week and they don’t give much back. They don’t support pollinators like birds or bees, and they usually require a whole bunch of chemicals to look good.

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Speaker 1: My feeling was really we need to start doing something about it because in the meantime, having been active in nature and conservation for for for so many years, I knew that it’s not just about national laws or international treaties. It’s about local efforts. And I realized that I had the unique opportunity being for a limited number of years, a number of years like the master of the House on this plot to change something and to try to serve as an example.

Amanda Ripley: It’s not just about policy.

Speaker 1: It’s about creating islands as many as possible. And even a small plot. Even your small garden in front of your small townhouse can make a difference because it’s one small island from which insects and birds and other animals can hop to the next one.

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Amanda Ripley: I know I often have this feeling like there’s nothing I can do individually. On climate change. It sort of feels I feel very disempowered, frustrated. But what you’re saying is that there are things we can do, and if we all do them, then it does become collective action.

Speaker 1: It’s all a matter of scaling it up. But before you starts killing it up, you need you need to demonstrate the feasibility of the concept. So my first reaction was to stop using pesticides. And I told the gardening team there would be no pesticides on this property and we will see what happens. And of course, the first reaction of the gardeners was, but it’s not going to look that good. And I said, well, it all depends what you consider looking good. And then I started researching and it was this beautiful program by Audubon Society of America. They have this fantastic website where you can go put in your zip code and they will tell you what to plant in order to recreate the biodiversity as it was before human intervention, or at least before industrial agriculture and before golf courses. They then started a dialogue with my gardening team to say, What could we do? And that’s that’s how it started.

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Amanda Ripley: Were there other challenges? I don’t know from the neighbors, you know, people like me or other people who maybe just didn’t get it at first.

Speaker 1: That’s one of the advantages of enjoying diplomatic immunity, you know, so, so, so no, frankly, the neighbours, I think in the beginning didn’t realise what was happening. And at some point I was with a gardening team in the garden and someone speaks to me from the other side of the fence and says, Are you the ambassador? Yeah. Do you realise you have such a huge plot and you don’t have bees?

Speaker 1: And I said, Yes, I do realise and what you propose to do. And he says, I’m the head of the Beekeepers Association. Can we use your plot? And I said, Of course, no, we have the bees. We are the biggest beekeeper in Washington, DC and we see the insects coming back. I mean, this year, for the first time we’ve had we had so many fireflies. And fireflies are a very important ecological indicator. The fireflies are the first to go and the last to come back. They are very, very sensitive due to changes in the environment. And we’ve had monarch butterflies. I was so glad to see monarch butterflies because because that is a disappearing fast. But as soon as you give nature a chance, as soon as you create an island, there is a potential for them to come back.

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Amanda Ripley: On today’s show, we’re going outside and going to get our hands dirty. Building on last week’s conversation about how to save the planet one backyard at a time. Now, normally, diplomatic compounds like this are off limits to the public, but Ambassador Pete Lu has welcomed us here to prove what is possible. And for him, it’s about way more than gardening. It’s funny because when we were dreaming of inviting you on this show, we were worried that you wouldn’t come because you’re busy with important matters of state. But I can tell listening to you that this is an important matter of state.

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Speaker 1: A matter for all states and for the international community to deal with. No, not in the 22nd century. It would be too late. So we can’t just wait.

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Amanda Ripley: All right, let’s take a walk, if that’s all right. Coming up, the ambassador is going to show us how he transformed the once perfect lawn outside his residence into a less perfect wildlife preserve. And he’ll share advice on how all of us can help conserve our little piece of the planet. One lawn at a time. Stick around.

Amanda Ripley: Can you believe this view? Yeah, it’s amazing, Montel. Tell us what you’re seeing. Yeah, I’m seeing a break in the trees that perfectly frames the Washington Monument. Beautiful big trees here. How many trees did you plant?

Speaker 1: Around 20 so far. So there is this picture here that I just didn’t have the heart to take it down. It should be here. It’s a Japanese tree. It has no reason to be here. But it’s so gorgeous. I just couldn’t take it down. But what’s interesting is that we have pines, we have oaks. And so here you see on the right the test dry meadows that we’ve been creating, and then we’ll walk them the weather with meadows. And the idea is to transform the whole slope here that anyway, we never really used it.

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Amanda Ripley: And you can already see that the grass has more going on.

Speaker 1: And of course from of course.

Amanda Ripley: So there’s more it’s not just plain grass.

Speaker 1: It’s not pulling grass anymore. It has a lot of lots of clever clovers. Yeah, that is definitely something that insects love a lot.

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Amanda Ripley: So we had an expert who we interviewed for this show, who is a wildlife expert who helps people try to transform the ratio of their yards. So it’s it’s often 90% grass, 10% other trees and bushes. And he’s trying to flip it, you know, so that it’s more a greater percentage.

Speaker 1: And that’s exactly the idea. And so that’s this is the reason why we’ve been planting shrubs, but they need time to grow. Right. And you might have noticed there is this ungainly pile of dead wood. And that is also something that’s really important because it gives it gives the opportunity for many insects, especially for the much endangered wild bees, carpenter bees, burrowing bees to survive.

Amanda Ripley: So this is the debris from the yard.

Speaker 1: It’s the debris from the yard. And instead of burning it or anything, whatever, we try to keep quite, quite a large proportion of it to create also islands of it’s very good for all the worms all the. And that is maybe the most problematic aspect of when you’re dealing with the neighbors because it’s not necessarily quite nice to try.

Amanda Ripley: Once you know what it is and appreciate.

Speaker 1: It.

Amanda Ripley: Yeah, it’s filled with life and I think you see it a little differently. I’m most excited about this because every year we go to we we buy a ton of mulch for our little tiny rowhouse yard. Doug, the expert we interviewed said, stop doing that.

Speaker 1: Just use your own of.

Amanda Ripley: And so I’m super excited to argue about this with my husband and 3 hours and win that’s my goal is to win.

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Speaker 1: This oh you like to win too. Okay. Yeah. No, no, I understand. You know, and by the way, to the leaves, it’s so important to leave them, especially in the first three weeks before you mulch them. Because. Because in the first three weeks, that’s when they’re really feeding all the earthworms for the winter. And so if you take them away every day because it needs them keenly looking at it, it’s exactly what one should do. Huh? So you leave the leaves for the first 3 to 4 weeks, then you can you can mulch them, but it’s everything do the things that we want needs to look is.

Amanda Ripley: Giving me an excuse to not rake the leaves as much and not.

Speaker 1: Did you reach an excuse?

Amanda Ripley: Did you know I already did that? But now I can tell my neighbors, you know.

Speaker 1: Yeah. So this is about the environment.

Amanda Ripley: That I am just.

Speaker 1: And I’m sorry. Today, my, my, my cottontail seemed to be on strike because I have lots of cottontail.

Amanda Ripley: Lots of rabbits.

Speaker 1: Yeah, rabbits. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But. But it’s a little bit too hard. I don’t know if those are butterflies or. No, no. The dragonflies, the dragonflies are coming back to high. The dragonflies are coming back to show. What’s up. Yeah.

Amanda Ripley: Cicada sounds. And always count on the cicada.

Speaker 1: All of us. She hit us. We had them. And so here on this particular pine tree, I’ve been working with the city of Washington, trying to to get the first ever Eastern screech owl to nest on switch territory. But so far, we’ve been we’ve haven’t been successful. It would be an ideal spot. But but so far, so. So we installed this nesting box and it’s and it’s specific for the east and the eastern screech owl.

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Amanda Ripley: Has anyone ever visited that, you know?

Speaker 1: Yes. Yes. I saw one recently. Screech Owl. I was so happy about it. She stayed two days and went.

Amanda Ripley: She had somewhere to be.

Speaker 1: Or maybe oh, maybe she didn’t find a mate because here in the city it’s very uncommon.

Amanda Ripley: So you need to get a critical mass of details.

Speaker 1: But it would be I mean, that would be my dream. I mean, if I could get an Eastern screech owl, a sweet one, that would be nice.

Amanda Ripley: Looking out at this. And we’ve got the meadow here. We’ve got, you know, 50 beehives down there. The the box waiting for the the nest waiting for the screech owl.

Amanda Ripley: Can you just share one word or a few words that come to mind for how you feel?

Speaker 1: Emotional. I feel emotional about that because I think that we are really trying to set an example for for what everyone could do. So as you can see, these are typical the dry meadows because of course, the water doesn’t accumulate on on the slope, this sort. So you cannot plant it with meadow here is it has to be a dry meadow. The bees love it. So do the birds. Right now we have been planting sunflowers. The American goldfinches, they love the sunflowers. I mean, I’ve been photographing all seven woodpecker species in this plant.

Amanda Ripley: Really?

Speaker 1: All seven of them? Yeah. Which is incredible. They don’t all live here, but all. All seven of them have been here.

Amanda Ripley: And you’ve got them all.

Speaker 1: Of course, I’ve lost count, but I’ve definitely seen and photographed more than 80 species in this garden.

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Amanda Ripley: Species of birds?

Speaker 1: Only the birds. Yeah. Yeah. Which is the best.

Amanda Ripley: Can you explain to the listener what we’re approaching.

Speaker 1: So that there is a rule of four bee hives, bee houses, around 15 of them, and we have other ones behind the meadows. Right now we are well over a million. We probably have a million, 300, 400,000 bees. Wow.

Amanda Ripley: And so colorful, which is nice.

Speaker 1: Yeah. And so they are being collected by the Beekeepers Association. Every time someone calls because there is a swarm of bees and they come and collect them and then bring them for political asylum in the in the residence of the Swiss ambassador. And there is a whole art of how would you combined combine to swarms without them fighting each other. And if you discover a swarm that doesn’t have a queen, how do you combine it with an already existing swarm that’s living here?

Speaker 1: And then there is also how do you make sure that they don’t fly back to where they came from? Because bees, if you take them from a distance of less than four miles away, they will always fly back to where they were. They have this very interesting technique that they bring the swarm into a bee house and then they put branches in front of the exit. And because they are branches in front of the exit, the bees are disoriented. And so they reset the GPS and wants to have reset the gypsies. They will always come back to this place and not to the place that was on the other side. Wow. But there are old tricks that I never heard about.

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Amanda Ripley: These, aren’t they? Like, they’re amazing. I mean, you can learn a lot about diplomacy. Am I right?

Speaker 1: Oh, yes.

Amanda Ripley: Because they work as a collective indeed.

Speaker 1: They would kill each other if you would put them in the same house. So they put them in the same house, but at different levels. And they put newspapers between the two levels. And by the time the bees have eaten their way through the newspapers, they are used to it to each other, and they belong to the same swamp. It’s amazing. Wow. But I never knew all these things. I’ve been learning a lot.

Amanda Ripley: You know, we can see above the bee houses just a sort of riot. I mean, a civilized riot.

Speaker 1: I guess a little bit in the beginning, they used to go and drink in the swimming pool, which was very bad because many of them drowned. And so we have created this this problem that’s now behind the you can’t see the pond. And we create also a beach. It’s called the beach. And the beach is a very gentle slope that goes into the pond so that they can fly there and they drink. Believe it or not, each one of these hives needs in the summer for gallons a day. They drink a lot.

Amanda Ripley: I almost wish more people could see this. And I know that’s a little naive because you do have security concerns. And it’s not your house, right? It’s your people’s house. So how do you get more people to see what we’re seeing so that it spreads?

Speaker 1: First of all, we are extremely happy about the opportunity to talk about the project and to show it on different shows and to have journalists speak about it. And on the other hand, what we do with the neighborhood is when we have the yard sale for the honey, we open the gates here and we let people come in and we have people from the embassy explaining what we are doing and explaining the concept.

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Amanda Ripley: So we’re going to do that again this year.

Speaker 1: Of course.

Amanda Ripley: Of course. My calendar because I remember there was a furious thing on the list serves the neighborhood listservs about how quickly the honey sold out and I.

Speaker 1: Definitely after up to half an hour we had to realize that we had to limit the sale to one drug. A person.

Amanda Ripley: Were hoarding.

Speaker 1: It because because because it was, it was going so fast.

Amanda Ripley: Yeah. I mean, these neighbors, they can be competitive. Yeah. Let’s put it that way.

Speaker 1: Indeed. Competitive. The the scene was starting and then o’clock and by 830, there was there was a queue of 200 yards of people waiting for it and it.

Amanda Ripley: Was cooler out here than it does at my house. Okay.

Speaker 1: Okay. That’s that’s absolutely obvious. Wherever you are, if you are in the green area, the temperatures will on average on a very hot day, be 20 Fahrenheit, less if there is green. I mean, modern cities are heat traps. They’re actually heat traps. And one of the things that we have to do to fight global warming and to make our cities habitable again, especially if you think about some cities further south, is to have more and more green spaces. And you really feel the difference. You really do feel the difference.

Amanda Ripley: I mean, I could feel it here.

Speaker 1: I mean I mean, if you were on my terrace, which is a heat trap made of concrete, it a difference is really palpable. Yeah.

Amanda Ripley: Anything else you wanted to show us? What we’re up.

Speaker 1: Tell Alexander to come over. Alexander is. Is a professional gardener. He has been working for a very long time around the. Around the city. He comes from Salvador and he’s been passionate from the beginning. He. He loved the idea of changing the.

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Amanda Ripley: So he found it?

Speaker 1: Yeah. He wasn’t bored. Yes, he wasn’t bored. He really was. Nice to meet you. And he has been on the on the on a gardening team for for for many, many years. And he knows some. Much more about plans than I do that he’s probably the person to interview.

Amanda Ripley: Coming up, we’re going to talk with Alexander, one of the gardeners on staff here who will testify firsthand to what it was like to try to keep up this property before it became a wildlife oasis. We’re back at the Swiss ambassador’s residence in Washington, D.C., where the lawn has been totally reimagined to support more life, including the life of the people who work on it full time.

Alex Bonilla: My name is Alex Bonilla and being here with the Switzerland embassy for about ten years and it’s been a huge impact when Ambassador Peter Lewis arrived here. You know, we stop using herbicides and chemicals on the grass, on the lawn because I mean, this basically you can see it’s a lot of clover, a lot of, you know, things. And then I create kind of meadows in between. Just do the bees also take advantage of that, you know? And, you know, it’s been grateful, very grateful to to have this and have.

Amanda Ripley: Seen the full spectrum of like perfectly yes, of course. Lawn and having to take care of that.

Alex Bonilla: Yes. It’s it’s been different.

Amanda Ripley: So so I know you need to get back to work and so does the ambassador. But can you describe what the difference is like if we were to go back in a time machine and be on this property ten years ago when you first started? What’s the difference in how it would look and also how it would feel and how your day would would look like the work that you do?

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Alex Bonilla: I probably won’t go back where it was. You know, stop using chemicals and things like that, which is not good for me, for my health, for everybody else, you know, who’s doing gardening.

Amanda Ripley: So one change, it sounds like, is that you are less personally exposed. You and your colleagues are less exposed to dangerous chemicals. Right. That’s a big improvement. How does it look or feel differently than it did ten years ago?

Alex Bonilla: Well, it was more, you know, like you said, after the golf course, it was more maintenance, more like the aspect of the lawn that needs to be neat and stuff like that. So I was not really happy using chemicals and things, or especially on the grounds which have about six acres of grass. So acres.

Amanda Ripley: Of grass.

Speaker 1: So yeah.

Alex Bonilla: So it’s, it’s not very easy to maintain. So it’s, it’s better just to keep it like that natural.

Amanda Ripley: This is helpful because we had talked about how transitioning it was quite labor intensive and expensive, but it sounds like once you get there, is it less labor intensive?

Speaker 1: Yes, it is. Thank you. You’re welcome. Thanks. I feel like maybe something that I should I should add is that what we are doing here is actually consistent with Switzerland’s policy. We are trying and we have a clear mandate by the government to try and raise the awareness for the environmental challenges. Switzerland is not perfect, but we are really trying hard. And so it’s an official message, which means also that because it’s a question that was asked to me, I was asked a few a few weeks ago. So. And what is your successor doesn’t like the the the biodiversity garden. Well, no choice. No choice debate. The biodiversity garden is here to stay because because this is the future. The future is to try and work for biodiversity.

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Amanda Ripley: I’ve heard a phrase that you use sometimes environmental diplomacy. And that sounds like that’s what you mean, right?

Speaker 1: The environmental diplomacy is really trying to push on the one side awareness. Of course, for all the challenges that our environment is facing, but also trying to push the technologies that will help us deal with it, cleantech in particular, carbon capture technologies, all things that can be very good for the economy and at the same time very good for the environment. So it’s not just a losing game where you have to make a choice between protecting your environment or making money. You can do both.

Amanda Ripley: That’s the beauty of it. Like you can do less yard work and help the environment.

Speaker 1: It’s a nice little hill, isn’t it?

Amanda Ripley: And I’m hearing some birds.

Speaker 1: Okay, so try and find out what they are.

Amanda Ripley: Well, I heard a crow earlier.

Speaker 1: Did you? That was the easy one. Okay, come on. Let’s think about the other birds.

Amanda Ripley: I was very proud of myself with the crow. I know.

Speaker 1: Okay. Cicadas.

Amanda Ripley: Cicadas.

Speaker 1: But then the birds eye can hear the tufted titmouse in the background. But far away, this very high pitched sound. That’s the tufted titmouse. Hmm. This morning there was. You hear.

Amanda Ripley: That? It’s like an owl.

Speaker 1: No, that’s not enough. What is that? That’s the morning dove.

Amanda Ripley: Oh.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Amanda Ripley: Still, I get half a point.

Speaker 1: Well, yes, it was a bird. Okay.

Amanda Ripley: But. But a commoner. I would assume.

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Speaker 1: It’s definitely a commoner. And this. This morning, there was a whole strange singing. Very few birds keep singing in the. In mid-July. Early July. But at the house, French was singing. Hmm. And as you can see, the mockingbird is inspecting. Yes, he’s watching us. He doesn’t like us to be here. Just like you said he would be defending. And of course, he’s defending his territory.

Amanda Ripley: He’s standing in the corner, and.

Speaker 1: He has this. These old habits. Every evening at 5:00, when the crows come back from whatever they were doing, he will attack them. Oh. And it’s like an old couple fighting, you know? You know, at 5:00, they’re going to fight here in the space.

Amanda Ripley: I feel like I’ve heard that from my house. It’s like.

Speaker 1: A little.

Amanda Ripley: Sort of skirmish every night.

Speaker 1: That was a there was one of the morning doves. Okay. It just flew by, which gunnery.

Amanda Ripley: We call a group of crows. Again.

Speaker 1: A murder. A murder?

Amanda Ripley: I love that.

Speaker 1: The murder, of course. You’re not being a yes. No. That’s probably a morning dove. That’s it. Yeah.

Amanda Ripley: Yeah. He’s a sentinel. He’s. He’s got your back. The sky.

Speaker 1: So we had this we organized in March, April, the biodiversity month. So we had a special envoy, Kerry, explaining to the diplomatic community what the plans of the administration are for the COP 27. And then we had a whole series, one of them birds, one on insects, one on water every time with some of the most amazing specialists around. And the evening when we had the birders. So all the crazy birders of the area. Yeah, we were gathered on the terrace. And for the first time ever since I’m here, we had a bald eagle, an adult bald eagle flying at eye level. He flew here. Oh, my God. And we’re watching the bald eagle. Because normally, if you see it around here, it.

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Amanda Ripley: Is way up high.

Speaker 1: You know, whereby and it just flew here. Probably he knew that all the birds were there. I do assume. Yeah. And that night we also saw the common nighthawk, which I had never seen.

Amanda Ripley: It seems like you are the Forrest Gump of birds like you are. Wherever the interesting birds are.

Speaker 1: Just like a box of chocolate. You never know what you’re going to see.

Amanda Ripley: So thank you so much for inviting us into your home and showing us all that you’ve done. And it is truly an inspiration and a kind of oasis. So thank you.

Speaker 1: And thank you for having me.

Amanda Ripley: Thank you to Ambassador Jacques Pitteloud for inviting us over and even sending us home with a sample of his in-demand D.C. Honey. Make sure you listen to last week’s episode with Doug Tallamy on the simple steps you can take in your own backyard. Speaking of after last week’s show, we actually got a few listener notes we wanted to share. The first is from Kelly. She says If Judy is looking to attract hummingbirds, they’re actually better plants than trumpet honeysuckle. She also says the magnolia is a good choice. They do get large but grow slowly. And she loves herself an evergreen broadleaf tree. So there you go.

Amanda Ripley: We also got a note from Bernie, who has been transforming their yard into a bird and pollinator sanctuary for five years now, conducting daily insect observations and iNaturalist postings, and has spotted north of 500 different insect species so far. Very cool. What about you? Do you have a problem that feels enormous but still needs to be tackled one plant at a time? Send us a note at how to at Slate.com or leave us a voicemail at 6464954001 and we might have you on the show.

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Amanda Ripley: Finally, one last note before we leave you for the week. We are aware, as you probably are, that it’s been just about a year since the United States left Afghanistan and the Taliban swept into Kabul. If you haven’t heard it already, we wanted to make sure you knew about an episode that we ran a few months ago about how to really help refugees. This is an episode that is near and dear to my heart. After having spent months for a Politico story following a very unusual group of female Afghan soldiers who have been relocated to the United States. I learned so many things from this experience, and one of the most important things I learned was how important it is to listen to refugees themselves and the people who are working closely with them to understand what they need most and what they definitely don’t need.

Amanda Ripley: So we wanted to let you know that that episode called How to Really Help Refugees is Linked. In the show notes, I hope you’re able to give it a listen if you haven’t already. How to is executive producer is Derek John Rosemary Belson produced this episode with help from Madeleine Ducharme and Katie Shepherd. Our theme music is by Hannah Brown, remixed by Mira Jacob. Our technical director, Charles Duhigg, created the show. I’m Amanda Ripley. Thanks for listening.

Speaker 1: Though most of the chicks are out of the different bird species. Meaning? Meaning that the parents now have a dull plumage and they don’t sing anymore because they did. They have no reason to endanger themselves. You see, so, so, so right now it’s not true. BE Except of course from my resident looking bird that is here. And as soon as we get out, she will come and inquire, which doesn’t make anyone to be on his territory. He’s attacking. He’s attacking every bird coming into the bay. So. So it is quite territorial. Yeah.