No Space for Columbus

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S1: So, Katie, what are you most excited about at the moment?

S2: Well, whenever I have a birthday, I think of it as like the season of my birthday.

S1: It’s a little greedy, isn’t it?

S2: Well, it lets you kind of spread things out. You know, I had a particularly long birthday, actually, when I launched to the space station because I actually launched the day after my fiftieth birthday. And it was, you know, hold

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S1: it, hold it, hold it. I had no idea you went up when you were 50 that that in itself is a pretty big thing.

S2: Well, my husband has had a hard time getting coming up with a better birthday presents, that’s for sure.

S1: Yeah, there’s nothing really to talk.

S2: But it was also it was also the fiftieth anniversary of human spaceflight while I was on the space station, and that was 10 years ago. And so in my mind, there’s just this whole kind of month of April. But it’s really April 12th where we celebrate the first time that a human being left our planet launched into space. And that was Yuri Gagarin. And I just and actually what I really love about this celebration is the fact that it took it took basically a group of friends who came from all over the world to say, hey, is this something that not just like Russia should celebrate and not just the US when we go launching, but this is about humans, humans launched from the very first time a human left the earth. And it’s become this worldwide celebration due to this group of friends. And it’s called Yuri’s Night, where in cities all over the world, people will celebrate. So and when we were up on the station, the one of the guys who came up during our expedition actually brought us T-shirts with Yuri Gagarin face on it. And and so it just really meant a lot to us to be basically celebrating his launch and holding his picture, which always hangs on the in the service module in the Russian part of the space station. His pictures always up there. So we have his picture. We’re celebrating with Yuri. So this is always a really special time of year for me.

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S1: Yes. And I love the fact that it really emphasizes the reality that so far space has just transcended these these global boundaries, that you have astronauts and scientists and cosmonauts from all over the place actually getting on together as one big family.

S2: It’s you know, it is one big family. And you almost can’t keep us apart even if the, you know, particular countries aren’t actually actively planning expeditions. The astronauts still have, you know, just relationships to each other because we are just one family. But I think we should start our show. I’m Cady Coleman.

S1: I’m Andrew Maynard.

S2: Welcome to Mission Interplanetary.

S1: Today we’re asking, do we need to decolonize space exploration? So, Cady, what even does not mean, especially after we’ve been talking about how international it is?

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S2: You know, it’s interesting what a few hundred years perspective can do. And I think if we look at how colonization worked on the Earth and realized what implications now that word you can have for for all of us, I was going to say for many people, but it should be for for all of us with this perspective, I think given a chance to do things again, we would do them differently, starting with even the words that we talk about going further and settling down.

S1: I agree. And I actually to be serious here, this was one of the episodes that I was most excited to record with our guests coming in, because this seems to be such an important issue. How we even think about space not only goes to space, but the language we use, the way we develop our ideas of space, how it ties in with how we think about human society on earth, some tremendously big questions and issues here.

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S2: It’s going to be a pretty neat episode.

S1: I think I’m really looking forward to this one.

S2: So let’s move to our weekly obsessions. Andrew, what are you obsessed with this week?

S1: OK, so I’m going to test your science fiction law. I have been obsessing about Ellie Arawak,

S2: nine point point one to Andrew.

S1: So there’s a back story here. So, Ellie, our way, as some listeners may remember, is the character in Carl Sagan’s movie Contact. And so she she’s this brilliant astrophysicist and she’s actually based on a real life person, Jill Tarter, who was one of the founders of Setit. The reason I’m obsessed with the Arab way, actually, there are a couple of reasons I teach this course that use a science fiction movie is to help my students really think about the nature of science and society in the future. And this week we are watching contact. We actually get to watch the whole movie as a class, which is just phenomenal. But I love this movie because it’s one of those movies that isn’t that highly rated by a number of people. But to me, it captures the essence of what it is to be a scientist, not only the mechanics of science, but the belief that goes into it, the passion, the love for finding out new things and asking questions. And this character, who in the movie, Ellie Arawa, who’s played brilliantly by Jodie Foster to me, encapsulates that that intersection between belief and faith and science. So I’ve been thinking a lot about this as we come to teach this class.

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S2: Well, and for me, the fact that that movie is about a woman. Yes. And really holding up, you know, that that mirror so early in many people’s lives that the people who are passionate and find the way to bring other people with them and figure out whether they’re right or not, not be afraid of whether they’re right or not. I just think that that is such a great way to show everyone, really, I mean, especially women and girls, that they can be the ones that that lead the way.

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S1: Absolutely. Yes. So how about you? What have you been obsessing about?

S2: Well, this week it’s been ballet now, not my career.

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S1: And I was I was going to say, you’ve got to demonstrate a demo.

S2: Would not be it would not be pretty. OK, just like karaoke for me is really not pretty. But but it’s about ballet in space. And I watched this week where we had a space capsule that is docked to the space station. Four people went up in that capsule and they’re working hard on the space station. But we’re about to have four more people docked the space station. And so we needed to actually move the original capsule up to a different place out of the way. Now, in the meantime, that’s the rescue ship. And so we have to have them inside the ship. And so this crew climbed in, left the space station in their capsule, relocated. And it seems like something that just happens. But the choreography for that started literally back with Gagarin, right where, you know, every mission we add on, what we know, what we don’t know, we try new things. How do we dock to large spacecraft in space together? But gently, how do we separate them? How do we send one down to the lunar surface and one stays in orbit, all of that kind of orbital ballet? To me, it’s interesting how we can now just kind of do it. And yet it’s all part of a large progression.

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S1: I love that. And of course, as you’re describing this in my head, going back to movies, I’ve got 2001 A Space Odyssey. And some listeners may remember this, the beautiful scenes in space where you’ve got the Blue Danube. And you’ve got this beautiful ballet type set of scenes where you’ve got not only the ships in the space station, but the people on there as well and just the elegance of the motion. So now somebody has absolutely got to set those ballet moves around the International Space Station to the Blue Danube. Absolutely. Got it.

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S2: Oh, that’s a keeper. Yes. Hey, we are going to take a short break and we will be right back. Today on Interplanetary, we’re discussing decolonizing space exploration. Our guest is Natalie Trevino. Natalie is a space theoretician, an award winning educator, and her research focuses on the colonial legacy of space exploration. She holds a Ph.D., newly minted from Western University in London, Ontario, in theory and criticism. Natalie Trevino, welcome to Interplanetary.

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S1: Thank you. This is going to be a lot of fun. And again, congratulations. Freshly minted.

S2: Thank you.

S1: Thank you. So, Natalie, in what sense have we actually colonized space?

S3: That’s a great question. It’s not so much that I’m worried about the colonization of space as in the migration of humans into space. I’m much more interested in the sociopolitical dynamics that can go with us into space. And by that, I mean when we talk about going into space and colonizing it, we talk we use language like Frontier or Pioneer. And a lot of times it’s a very exclusionary language because if there’s a young indigenous child wanting to go to the moon, they don’t particularly want to be a cowboy to go there. Right.

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S2: They want to be able to be themselves.

S3: Right. Right. Exactly. And so when we’re talking about colonization, it’s a matter of what does the language entail and what does it hide? Because a lot of times me as a a kid, I wanted to go into space, but I didn’t see a lot of times people like me that were doing it.

S1: How, Cady, what was it like when you were thinking about this? Does this resonate with you in terms of not seeing you fit in or did you just get sucked up into this language of frontiers and colonization?

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S2: Well, I think if you’re if you’re lucky, you kind of have blinders on and you don’t see these things. Like I’m I mean, I’m a funny example is that I’m kind of short, but I just grew up with a different idea of eye level, you know, where I just thought I was the same height as everybody else. And and yet you shouldn’t have to have that extra layer of armor to put yourself out there and say, you should pick me. Right, and so wanting to make it open to everyone and I will say that being up on the space station as the only woman out of out of six people, you know, sometimes I really did feel like I’m representing I’m bringing a lot of people with me in and doing a lot of things visually and sending a lot of videos and photos home, hoping that they can make someone else think without thinking that they belong up here to my right.

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S3: And so can I ask questions? Yes. In some ways, Kitty, what I’m hearing you say is that you realized that you were more than just who you are. You are a representation for women in space. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And really, I would love for it to be that you could simply be yourself in space and go through that incredibly personal experience without having to worry about every other woman on the planet saying, can can I make sure I’m doing this right for them?

S2: Exactly.

S1: Exactly. Jumping off of that. Is this what you think about when you think about decolonization or is it bigger than that?

S3: It’s much bigger than that. So really, what is it about? It’s not so much about diversifying the already existing structure as much as it is, or saying, why are we doing it the way we are? Because I think about it this way. We can plug as many different people as we want into certain roles. But if the role and the vision for the role and the vision for the entire challenge of going into space is set on very colonial structures, then it doesn’t matter who we put up there, because we’re always going to have a colonial orientation, not just to things outside in space, but also to our own people and to the way we interact as humans.

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S1: And just talk a little bit more about them, because I suspect some people will be listening and they’ll be thinking, I can’t quite make the connection between the old and colonial days where people sort of basically sort of decided that somebody else’s land was theirs and they populated it versus going into space where there is nobody. So just say a little bit more about what you mean when you talk about colonialism in this respect. Right.

S3: So that’s where you come up with a distinction between colonialism, as in the practice of colonizing land and peoples and colonial city, which is a term used to express an entire logic of power and relation.

S1: So then do you see this in the history of space exploration? And I’m just thinking here because, see, when you go back to the Apollo 11 mission and you see these astronauts going out, landing on the moon, placing the American flag there, there was nobody there. So, yes, you could say they were colonizing the moon, but they weren’t robbing they seemingly weren’t robbing anybody else of anything. And yet, from what you’re saying, there was a whole attitude that dictated how we did things within that process.

S3: Absolutely. Like why why do we take the flag? What you know, if it was something that we did for all at the time it was called we said mankind then then why was the red, white and blue there? Katie, why

S1: would you

S2: think it it’s my fault? Well, you know, when I was one of the things that really sticks out for me, having lived on the space station and it’s always a little hard to talk about, is that it was almost like a non sequitur to have a flag on your shirt of what country you came from on the crew, because we were all up there and you look down and we’re just six of many and it just didn’t seem like it was even at all important which part of the land down there you came from. Right. And so I I think this is and I think this is something where if you if you ask the people who are actually in the process of exploring their opinion, they would go flag, why would we plant a flag? Because it just doesn’t make any sense. And in fact, I think sometimes artists can really, really embody the spirit of what people are doing. And there’s a famous artist named McCall who in his painting of Mars and planting a flag on purpose, put it in shadow. So there was no one particular country, though, actually, when I think one of the administration’s announced that they were going to shoot for Mars, they actually altered the painting.

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S1: So I’ve got to ask a really provocative question here. And I do want to get on to how we decolonized space, but before we get there. So a flag at National Flag is one thing, but I wonder whether there are other types of flags. And I’m thinking about the aspirations of going beyond the moon and going to Mars. And I’m thinking about what type of people will be the first people to get there and whether they will be placing a metaphorical flag in the ground, so you can imagine sort of the white entrepreneurial flag, whatever that looks like. I mean, is this a danger that we need to be aware of and think about?

S3: I think it is because what you know, because there’s a couple of things happening and I think Katie pointed out really well, is when you’re an astronaut on a mission, the flag on your shoulder isn’t particularly important. But it is important to the people who put you up there that it is important. It is

S2: right in terms of who you bring with you

S3: and what you can which president can say that’s our person or what can be used to say, well, we have this many people in space right now because we are technologically more advanced or whatever. And so even if the individuals there are not seeing it as a political move, it’s being used as such.

S2: Is that the colonially? Yeah. OK, OK, interesting.

S3: So it’s not so much a matter of individual actions that we take because someone could ask me tomorrow, Natalie, do you want to go to the moon? I’ll be like, oh, I’ll sign me up. I’ll go right now and and I’ll go. But I know the consequences of those actions are much larger than just me and what I want.

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S1: So how do we decolonize in this respect, because clearly you’ve got good people that just want to be part of a global community like Kadee going up there, and then you got the people behind them. How do we even begin to start decolonizing that?

S3: That’s the tricky thing, because what you end up realizing is that almost everything that we’ve done and by we I mean like the United States is a nation state has always had a political motive when it comes to NASA. But we went to the moon to beat the Russians and then we started doing other things in space to keep up the Cold War, to show the Russians really what was going on. We’re better than you. We’ve got this down. We can put people in space. We can put, you know, anything we want to do. We can do it because we’re technologically superior and we’re going to be the leaders of the world, OK? And that doesn’t mean that the people who go to the moon or want to become astronauts believe these things, but they do have to act in accordance with those mandates. To get there, I’m not

S2: sure I’m going to agree there and then I think when I think of the teams of people, you know, whether it’s astronauts or the people on the ground that are making the missions happen, there is a genuine love and reverence for exploration. Absolutely. For understanding that people are just meant to go further. Yes. And, you know, when I was doing some reading in getting ready and one of the things that I read about said, you know, often space has been something that’s been used to distract when we’re trying to emphasize race problems, the civil civil rights, things like that. I wonder what you thought about that.

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S3: I don’t think that going into space is a distraction, like a political distraction from the things that are happening on Earth. I think that going into space, exploring space, human migration in space is incredibly important for our entire species. What can happen, though, is those things can be put towards each other and antagonistic ways. So how many times do people say, well, we could just take money from NASA and feed the poor or build the houses? And a lot of times it’s like one. Just because you’re different NASA doesn’t mean that it’s going to go into social services.

S2: But also there’s just something about the compelling nature of space that’s plain old, not fair for everything else in that in that research that is valuable for space and understanding how to make spacecraft go faster or how to grow plants and food on the way to Mars. Those are important things. And at the same time, basically the research that we do to make it happen in space can be very valuable here on Earth. And yet if you only fund it or ask the question for Earth related problems or challenges, you wouldn’t necessarily get that grant. And people are proud and excited and compelled. And I think things happen that wouldn’t happen if it wasn’t for space. And we’re not in a Cold War. Right.

S1: Doesn’t but doesn’t that open the door to political manipulation? Because you’ve got this whole swath of people who are just excited to do stuff here. And if you give them opportunities, they’ll take those opportunities. And I can just imagine a bunch of cynical politicians thinking we know where the buttons are, we’re going to push their buttons and they’re going to work for us, even though they don’t know. It might just be way too soon.

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S3: No, you know what? It’s funny that people would like to always point out that Kennedy was a massive advocate for space and he didn’t he didn’t give a damn about space itself. He saw it as crushing dreams here. I’m sorry, but it was a political arena. And, you know, when you’ve got people who and that’s the thing. Space people, we love space. Right? There’s we and I whenever I talk with people in the space community, I always say it this way. I say we all have that that feeling that we get where we just get excited. And, you know, we all kind of it’s like a giggle in the back of our throats. A lot of times we just know the sensation of being overwhelmed and in love with space. And that feeling is so genuine. Like, you know, I when I started my work, I was like, oh, my God, what if I go through all of my research and I find out that that feeling is actually just some leftover Columbus’s evil spirit?

S1: Oh, it’s the colonization of your minds, the system.

S3: And so I was like, oh, no. But, you know, at the one at the end of the day, people have been fascinated by space long before we ever had access to it. Space is the most one of the most compelling things that if not the most compelling as a space person. I would say it’s the most compelling thing. And, you know, every single culture on the face of this planet has created a relationship to space that they express in numerous ways, whether they’re cultural, social or political. And the one that we currently have is this unfortunate relationship. We have the space that we use through colonial language that I don’t actually think we need the colonial language to sell going into space.

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S2: I would agree. So what do you think would be a better model for space exploration if we take away the colonizing the language, but also that that spirit that you’re talking about?

S3: Oh, I think that opens up the entire universe to something so much more interesting, right. Because right now it’s about the space economy and how much money you can make by going into business or becoming an engineer or. But there are all of those those kind of career goals are set up around really kind of getting into space and then doing what we normally do, which is find resources, extract them and build more and consume more.

S2: Well, what

S3: what if it was just like an artist’s colony on the moon?

S1: So you mean it almost sounds like you’re saying, let’s be honest about this, we want to go to space because it’s cool, because it’s exciting, because it just expands our mind. Why sort of put the boring stuff like economics onto it?

S2: I mean, sure. But what if you could have a fibre that an optical fibre that when spun in space is so perfect that you didn’t have all these junctures on cables going across the ocean? What if you could figure out how to do controlled release drug delivery because you did it in zero G and could make know perfectly concentric drug, drug wall or capsule walls so that drugs were perfectly released? Or at least you found out how to basically found out how to do it down here on Earth. And so it’s got to be I mean, who would I mean, going up there and doing that is going to cost some money. Somebody has to pay for it. And so why not make it so that people can people companies can actually put those lessons to work back on Earth?

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S3: Yeah. And that’s what we’re kind of starting to do now. But the problem is, is that one of the big things that colonially does is it creates a relationship with the environment in the outside world that is one of consumption. So it’s not so much that businesses or the space economy is is a bad idea, so much as it is the reason that we want to go to the moon to harvest all the things that we can get there oftentimes is for extraction and profiteering, not so much utilization. Right. And I think if we were to build an economy of utilization of saying, OK, we actually do want to go to space, we want to figure out all the things that we can get by going into space. And that’s something that we as a living creatures have to do. We consume and grow and are in existence and be. So then what would it be? Instead of dredging up everything that we could at the moon to just create a larger economy for consumption, if it was actually like we’re trying to build a university on the moon, we’re going to actually use what we can there and bring what we need. And it just sustains itself. And then all this stuff can can kind of come out of it. So there’s two parts. It’s imagining something different for the world that we already inhabit, then imagining beyond that imaginary world to another world that we can have.

S1: I love that. And it ties into thinking around alternative economies to use that dirty word economy again. But really, you’re beginning to talk about value creation with different types of value, not just monetary value. And I wonder whether that comes into the mental reset around colonisation, where we just not only change the language, but we change the whole way. We think about how we not only use space, but then what it means to Earth as well.

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S3: Yes, yeah. It’s so back in nineteen fifty eight when I’m just going to say this strangely. Oh when I was doing my research I found a memo from nineteen fifty eight that was actually about the types of ideas that were in the ethos for continuing space organisation for the United States and the different reasons that we would have them. And it was written by as Paul Johnson for Dr Chilian, who was a science adviser to President Eisenhower at the time, and he made it. He he almost made it too easy for me to write my dissertation because he labels it as to exploit space. We need two things. We need exploration and control.

S2: Hmm. Interesting.

S3: Every single American policy since then has recruited that structure over and over and over again to different cultural and social at times. So in the nineteen sixties and seventies and even into the eighties, it was all about winning the Cold War. But as in the nineteen eighties, it started to become much more about the economy and producing a flourishing economy. And when you come up with so I call this little formula the killing formula. So exploitation is exploitation and control.

S1: So I must confess, I’m just looking at stats that those three words exploits, control and explore really sort of illustrates to me just how deeply baked in this idea of colonialism is. I mean, even the idea of we think about space, we think about exploiting it, we think about controlling the space and that if I’m getting this right, from what you’re saying is where maybe we need to have a reset just on the language and the framing so that we use a different language about space, which isn’t about control and exploitation, but it’s about something else which is still meaningful.

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S2: Let me throw one more thing in here, which I really wonder now that you’ve made me think about this in a different way. Is whenever we do research up in space, there’s there’s a large pressure to say, well, you’re doing this fluid physics research, what’s that going to be good for as opposed to I mean, there’s a few is it is if you really had to be able to specify who was going to be saved or what would be different when you don’t really know that until you explore what’s going on. And so we don’t it’s really a fight. It’s a struggle to explore through science in space, in a place where people want to say, we spent all this money and this is what we got from it. Right. So, you know, we’re. It seems like we could do art. I mean, we’re talking about how could we go and just be cultural or be more cultural and not just entrepreneurial oriented, but how could we how could what you’re talking about help us do science, you know, as an exploration without the pressure of production? It’s a long way to ask that question.

S3: Yeah, but that’s just like what could you do if you just had the time and the space to do it? You know, like in teaching, when people use the Socratic methods, when they’re saying we’re just going to ask questions and questions and questions and see where this thing goes, it’s a matter of trusting the process because sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn’t. And that’s how it is a science. Sometimes things just don’t work out. And that’s a learning experience, too. But when there is that pressure to say, OK, if you do this experiment and then we can have this vaccine or this engineering model or this or that, and then we can go off and do something else that puts a lot of pressure on a person who like, well, I, I just kind of wanted to do this thing.

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S1: And maybe that is a step towards decolonization getting people to realize they don’t have to do stuff for a specific purpose because that’s what’s being done in the past. But to do the metaphorical thing of read and stare at a blank wall and allow themselves to see the potential future pathways differently. Mm hmm.

S2: I think, you know, everybody does this in their own their own way. I mean, we bring things with us, different books that are important. I brought Jules Verne from the earth to the moon just thinking that it was supposed to it was meant to be to be up there. And the three days that I spent after launching in the Soyuz, not three days a day and a half circling the earth, but just three of us alone, not in some big giant airplane, but in a small, tiny little capsule together is really just important human time. But how do we start doing things differently?

S3: Well, I think one of the things that we lack that one of the things that making space or space exploration routine has done is make it boring. As we mentioned before is that there is that sense of wonder with space, that sense of overwhelming awe. And in in my work, I call it cosmic or I say there’s this thing nice. And how do we get people to feel that or feel their rendition of that? And because we can’t always take people out out to show them the stars and we can’t always people don’t have that time. Some people are working too much. Some people live in the inner cities. All sorts of things restrict that. But one of the things that I find, especially in teaching, is that that sort of is contagious in its own way. When you get to a person and you’re like, OK, I don’t want to learn this, you can get a I want you to learn this to see what it can do for you in your own life and how it can be expressed for you. And I think really, when it comes down to it, it’s OK if we’re going to decolonize it’s a matter of making space to really think about what it is to be human.

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S2: I love that

S3: and how being human can be so vastly different.

S2: The Japanese actually made a nice sort of a nice start, and I found it interesting that it would come that why couldn’t why couldn’t we be doing that? Not because I want to compete, but more. I thought it was so much the right thing to do was that they allocated a certain amount of their experiment, time and space to art. And then it wasn’t always a Japanese astronaut that was up there. And this was everything from making things out of clay, dressing up, taking pictures of the moon out the window. When you’re not tethered in those pictures with the moon would actually be then late on a score and turned into music. And so they’re whimsical. They’re interesting. And and it was interesting to take these people often, you know, sort of test pilots and ferry ones and zeros in linear. And it’s what you were talking about, about how that all can be contagious, really, of, OK, I guess I’m going to do this. Well. Well, it’s it’s pretty neat. Look what I’m looking at doing over here. And then we’d all get to experience that. So there are some starts. But it would be it would be nice to when you say how are we going to bring that all that cosmic all home? I think it’s the arts. And right now we try to make partnerships with photographers on the ground and willing ones up in space who are willing to understand that somebody else might have a point of view that just isn’t there yet.

S1: Yeah. So it sounds like there is a critically important thing here about understanding our humanity and what it is to be human and how space fits in with that. And this has been a fantastic and fascinating conversation I. Not sure that we’ve really laid the future to rights in terms of how to ultimately colonize space, but it seems incredibly important that there are some small steps that we can take here. And that, to me, is what makes this conversation and your work so incredibly important Natalie. Thank you so much for being on the show and talking to us about it.

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S2: Thanks a lot. Thank you for having me.

S1: On mission interplanetary, we can’t show you videos of space. Well, we

S2: could, but that would

S1: really be silly,

S2: very silly.

S1: But we can’t let you hear what SpaceX sounds like.

S2: It’s a segment that we call Sounds of space.

S1: Okay, Katie, what was that?

S2: Well, a lot of images ran through my head. Some of them had to do with music time in kindergarten.

S1: Oh, goodness me. You’ve taken me right back there with that circle of kids with every conceivable percussion instruments.

S2: But it definitely has. I mean, there is data going on that is data alive and well and coming in.

S1: Oh, yeah. I think you may be surprised at this one. So that is the sound of the seismometer on board NASA’s Incyte Lander on Mars. So a seismometer is an instrument that records movement and vibrations of a planet like an earthquake or volcanic eruption. But this isn’t a Mars quake, and this is what makes this really interesting. These sounds are created by the parts inside the seismometer contracting as the instrument cools down at sunset. Really?

S2: Yeah.

S1: Isn’t that incredible? So you’re actually listening to the instrument itself. And this was recorded just after sunset on July the 16th, 2019. So if you are standing next to the insight on Mars at dusk, this is what you would hear as the lander seismometer cools down these little dings and little dunks.

S2: That is awesome. And actually a different way to experience sunset.

S1: It is. I just love that connection. I mean, it’s it’s almost like it’s the instrument speaking to us. Let’s listen to that again. That’s our show for this week. Thank you so much for joining us.

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S2: Mission Interplanetary is produced by Lance Gherardi, our sound designer and engineer is Steven Christensen, and our music was composed by Mario Energous.

S1: Remember to subscribe to us on Apple podcast Spotify. Or wherever you get your podcasts, leave us a review. Email us at Interferometry podcast at RSU Dot Edu. Recommend us to your friends. In fact, anybody you bump into.

S2: Mission Interplanetary is a production of Arizona State University’s interplanetary initiative, and Slate

S1: will be back next week asking the big questions about space exploration

S2: and the future interplanetary.

S1: We’ll see you there.