There’s No Law in That White House Counsel Letter

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S1: I know the whistleblower has been very accurate because when we released the transcript of the conversation that I had with the president of Ukraine who frankly today was very good somewhere in Ukraine I guess gave a news conference on unrelated things was asked the question and he said President Trump behaved in a perfectly fine manner. There was nothing wrong in any way shape or form.

S2: This is really unprecedented. Congress has a responsibility to conduct oversight of that particular serious responsibility in the context of an impeachment inquiry. Hollande says he’s disappointed that he wasn’t allowed to attend this deposition today. And I said the same thing.

S3: We’re where we wish he would have been able testify to. But we fully understand. Why the administration made the decision they did.

S4: Hello and welcome to Trump cast. I’m Virginia Heffernan. My guest is Alimi style. He’s a legal analyst at MSNBC and above the law. He and I are going to dig right into the absurd letter from White House counsel to House Democrats that said the president won’t cooperate with the impeachment investigation because it hurts their feelings because their subpoena intolerant maybe because they don’t like Adam Schiff. And it’s also not fun for the president to tell the truth et cetera. L.A. is the perfect person to pull apart this preposterous letter and I’m even going to get him to dive into an argument he’s hinted at on above the law in the past that Congress needs some muscle some law enforcement with handcuffs and power in meatspace. You hear what I’m talking about. To bring these contemptuous defiance of subpoenas to heal like to put them in jail you’ll see. Welcome.

S5: Ali thank you for having me. It’s an opportune time to see you because we have this just preposterous galling possibly ignorable letter from White House counsel Pat chip alone.

S6: It may be getting that wrong. He served notice to House Democrats so that’s the what is three chairman and one Madam Speaker that the White House will not cooperate with their impeachment inquiry and the level of snide ness the error grammatical or sort of errors at the level of diction the style of this thing there’s like there’s some Trump isms in there. It looks like one of those screwy executive orders that we know Trump so well for. You are a lawyer you understand things. Is this what what is the legal meaning of this and what is Trump’s team such as it is up to.

S7: There is no legal meaning to this right. This is complex.

S8: There is not a single valid legal argument in this entire letter. It is legal trash. If I didn’t know better I would say that this guy like watched like a marathon of Law and Order on TNT to get some law sounding words and just like sharpie them into what was clearly a political press statement on that he wanted to go out to the media and from a press statement. It’s kind of doing its work like you know talking about it as we’ve talked about on the news all last night. I mean people are treating this like it’s a legitimate document. Yeah but there’s no law in here. I want to just read one bit. It’s just the first because after you because you know it in a legitimate legal document you still might have a preamble of political rhetoric before you get to the actual law. Yes you get to the actual law. You start using Roman numerals REALLY LIKE YEAH RIGHT. WE’RE SERIOUS NOW. YEAH. Roman numeral one from this letter your quote unquote inquiry is constitutionally invalid and violates basic due process rights and separation of powers. OK. Nothing in that sentence is true. Right. There’s no reason for angry to be in quotes. It isn’t in Korea right. Yeah constitutionally invalid is just I don’t know how to put it. It’s not a legal term of art. Like some people use legal terms of arts all the time like I was often say of the Supreme Court they wrongly decided something that’s a legal term or. That’s not me that’s me trying to say like I disagree with their opinion.

S7: Yes constitutionally invalid is just it’s just not a thing. Yeah. That’s just not how lawyers talk.

S5: Categorically deny. Right. And that’s just that implies the opposite in a weird way because it’s excessively firm made. When did they just say literally invalid.

S7: No. So that’s not that’s not a legal thing. Violates basic due process rights which rights are you talking about lawyer. Yes there there’s a fourth amendment there’s a Fifth Amendment there’s a Sixth Amendment there’s a 14th Amendment that which one you don’t you’re not talking about any of them because this has nothing to do with quote unquote basic due process rights. This is not as procedural due process issue. You know why it’s not a procedural due process issue because they’re not a trial yet. Yeah due process happens once you have a trial. This is an inquiry. You don’t get due process rights for an investigation if you did. Can you imagine one of the things I like to do to people who don’t understand how completely insane the Trump legal arguments are. Yeah just. Every time you hear Trump a Trump legal argument imagine a black drug dealer making the same one. Mm hmm. Really. And if you can see how ridiculous we would react to a black drug dealer saying that the investigation into him is constitutionally invalid because he does not have the right to quote unquote cross examine the witnesses against him in the investigation. So what he’s supposed to go the drug dealer was to go down to the precinct shadow the cop around. Yeah the detective around while he’s conducting his investigation with his arms crossed waiting to see what the witnesses say about him. Right. That’s good. That’s due process. No my friend that is not how it works right.

S5: OK. Now I’m further picturing this. I’ve got it. It’s a night court or possibly and like Judge Wapner it’s about some Judge Judy and it’s someone saying like this is it like liquor violating every thing in the Constitution I need to be able to shout things out of key.

S9: Avon Barksdale being like I need I need to see the evidence you have against me. Cop like that. That’s that’s how it works.

S5: But I was wrong though if it if it were in court it would be in court. And then he would have due process. It is amazing that second paragraph where he’s supposed to have counsel present is it get discovery get cross-examine witnesses call witnesses and all those rights have been denied the president and many other basic rights guaranteed to all Americans. I mean is this just a wall of words.

S6: I mean since we know so well you’ve conducted your proceedings in secret also perfectly allowed in an investigation that involves national security issues.

S10: How do you get yet another chip alone person to be valet like bar like Giuliani.

S6: How does a lawyer put his whole career on the line to say things like the president’s being denied due process during an investigation because he can’t do cross-examination. I mean I don’t know anything about the law but I just would feel like like it’s just seems like he’s torching the rest of his career and credibility.

S8: I don’t know where Trump finds these people willing to debase themselves. I really don’t. But what I do know first of all it’s just day but. But what I do know is that one of the reasons why it keeps happening is because when these people wash out of the system there’s never any punishment. Right. You look at Don McGann his former White House counsel who is in some ways better than this guy than Pat because Tom again wouldn’t write this like this. This is the kind of legal cockamamie stuff that Trump won at McGann to write them again when it began had enough like self-regard to refuse to write this kind of stuff. But he did many horrible things in service of the president and he has received no punishment he has at his law firm Jones Day yanking millions of dollars again. Right. Jeff Sessions no punishment. Matthew Whitaker. Remember the post planning attorney general. Where’s his punishment. All right. The only person who has been punished is Michael Cohen and Michael Cohen was only punished because he actually lied in front of Congress. Right. Yeah. In terms of just like making an admitted it. And in terms of making bad legal arguments and embarrassing herself none of these people get punished. And it’s not and it’s not just the lawyers right. Sean Spicer is Dancing With The Stars Sarah Huckabee Sanders is a Fox News contributor right now. Like nothing ever happens to Trump people. Yeah. For doing this. And so why wouldn’t they just keep doing this at above the law.

S10: You’re tasked with and seem to take relish in keeping these guys as honest as possible or at least surfacing at these big law firms.

S6: Some of the malfeasance Kirkland and Ellis and Jones Day remind me of what these places are again.

S8: Okay. So Kirkland Ellis is actually a respectable law firm. It’s all going on them a little bit later Jones Day. So Joe’s day has been basically the legal forum team for the Trump administration. It’s where McGann comes from. And McGann has brought along a lot of his kind of cronies and partners. It is where I think for something like 17 Jones Day lawyers have either had positions in the Trump administration or been nominated to judgeships by the Trump administration. So it’s a very kind of clicky group of black people and lots of women. They are being sued right now for some really troubling sexual harassment and hostile work environment allegations of refusing to pay women partners as much as men. Random comments. There was one allegation where a associate of color claims that Jones they doctored her picture on their website to make her look darker so that they could be like Oh and why didn’t her nose and made her look darker with Photoshop to the look see we got a black one. Leave us alone. Like wow. The thing about Jones they and their and their fealty to Trump that people need to understand is that this is totally on brand for Jones Day. This is the kind of these are the kind of bad lawyers and bad legal arguments they are. They’re all about. This is a firm that got their start as a big tobacco offer. Right. Got it. So the concept of scruples in terms of client representation is not something that is natural. Jones Day to begin with Trump has just come along and kind of made everything click and work for them. Yeah it’s a little bit more surprising what Kirkland Ellis because Kakalios is like legitimately respectable. It’s a legitimately kind of large corporate firm that has lots and lots of clients and I think one of the things you see there is that’s kind of hitting a different aspect of elite legal culture in general right. When I look at Kirkland and Ellis lawyer willing to do this embarrassing work for Trump Yeah I think about all of the Yale professors who were willing to stand up for Brett Kavanaugh. Right. Right. And all of the Harvard professors who were willing let cabinet teach at the University I think of the Alan Dershowitz of the world right. There is an elite legal culture in this country that I have covered for eleven years now and have been a part of my former life. I was an associate double wasn’t Clinton and Harvard Law School so yeah I know these guys. Yeah. There is an elite culture in this country that basically acts like it’s all a game. Yeah yeah yeah. That basically I like all of this is some kind of like high level you know tic tac toe contest where nobody’s ever going to win it’s going to be a stalemate anyway. And so the best thing you can do is make as much money as you can while playing out the stalemate. Right. And it’s it’s I’ve had I’ve had discussions with other lawyers like it’s a question of at what point do we blame the lawyers for the clients they take. Yeah right. And I say that as a person who thinks that generally you shun it because there are some of the best legal work that some of the most noble and legal work that we have in this country involves really good and powerful attorneys taking on terrible clients drug dealers and criminals and rapists I’m taking on making sure that the lowest of the low have the best defense possible is an important part to our criminal justice system.

S6: You know I think we’ve talked to actually on this show before about how you know the lefty hero of my youth anyway I was once a kind of Clarence Darrow figure that took on and despised you know little guys who couldn’t speak for themselves and made their case against you know it overturned the bigoted lower courts and the higher and higher courts cross examined kind of just dug in people like William Jennings Bryan and thank goodness Scopes trial.

S11: And that’s how we know that the process that the system works right. Know the system works but this is different. It’s not the little guy. It’s Robert Trump.

S12: Trump is the over dog the overlord and these people are being are willing to work for him not because he is in desperate need of the best possible legal defense but instead because he is in desperate need of lawyers willing to make terrible arguments on his behalf. Yeah there is a woman at the Department of Justice who stood up in court and argued that tooth brushes and toothpaste were necessary hygiene materials for children. They’re willing to make these arguments. Noel Francisco the solicitor general United States routinely goes up in front of the Supreme Court and makes bad legal arguments that he must know do not hold water and he must know are embarrassing and wrong. And he makes them anyway. And this is this is different than defending defending a terrorist who is probably a horrible person needs to be in jail for the rest of her life. But defending them on the sound whatever sound legal grounds you can come up with.

S8: This is defending a an over dog and Trump who does not want the best legal defense he wants. He wants the Trump legal defense he wants. He wants the Trump isms in his you know five page letter arguing that an impeachment inquiry is unconstitutional even though every lawyer knows that that is a bad argument right.

S10: And just flatly wrong.

S6: He also wants to do pirouettes in here that are clearly aimed at the public and the media and not at any one with any kind of legal mind or training just the conceit right.

S8: One of those one of those parrots is this conceit that he deserves to be able to cross-examine the whistleblower. Right. So he’s what he’s doing right there is merging two concepts that do not belong together right. One is the concept in the law that we have that you have the right to face your accuser which you do if I accuse you of you know stealing stealing money from my house. You have the right to look me in the eye and say you know I’m the one who said you stole money from me.

S12: That is a that is a feature of our criminal justice system that happens at trial. The whistleblower is part of investigation and he is not claiming personal harm by Donald Trump or he or she is not claiming or they because there’s more there’s more than one. Yeah they are not claiming personal harm by Donald Trump. They’re simply saying that they witnessed a crime. Now there is no right in the law to confront witnesses to your crime especially if the only reason why you want to confront them is to intimidate them into not giving testimony. Yeah right. Whatever right you may have to confront witnesses to your crime happens once again at trial right. Not at the investigatory phase. So at the point where the whistleblower is called upon to testify against Donald Trump in a Senate trial after he has been impeached by the Congress. We can talk about whether or not Trump has no lawyers able to cross-examine him. I think there would be at that point if the witnesses if the whistleblower is being offered his testimony I think at that point it would be totally appropriate for Donald Trump’s attorneys to cross-examine those witnesses when there are witnesses at an actual trial which is something that we are eight steps behind that is very interesting the personal personal harm.

S6: The distinction between an accuser and a witness. I hadn’t thought of that before and since we’ve talked so much about E.J. and Carol and other sexual allegations against the president the kind of mix of the best witness is also the victim you know in in Egypt Carroll’s case it’s confusing that you’re meant to have a showdown you know face your accuser and there was a real feeling that Kristen Barzee forward with Brett Kavanaugh for example that they were in a locked battle but like kind of reproduce the logic of sexual assault. But instead I mean there’s another part of her that’s a witness every bit as much as the whistleblower. That’s what she was doing. Like Anita Hill coming forward to blow the whistle on someone she thought you know shouldn’t be on the court that we should think twice before confirming to the court. And so that’s an extremely important distinction to me anyway I want to talk about some other fallacies in this letter and also what happens when and if you’ve seen it before what happens when lawyers start writing press releases instead of briefs and legal documents.

S13: Will they get famous usually right. I mean like I mentioned em already but the reason why people know who Alan Dershowitz is is because for most of his career he has written press releases disguise the legal arguments right like he’s he’s he used to be.

S8: I don’t know that he is anymore. He used to be very good at both. Right. Very good at both playing the public aspect of law while also being a very effective trial lawyer. Yeah. I don’t know that he can say that about himself anymore but that’s why he’s famous right. And so lawyers you know when you especially when lawyers represent you know a famous client we could talk about Dershowitz about Michael having audio write like Michael and I played the press brilliantly for four.

S5: No I didn’t. Definitely did not fall for that handsome symmetrical little devil.

S8: For most us metrical tool for most of the stormy Daniels time in the spotlight Michael Abernathy was playing the media kind of correctly. Yeah. Lawyers who represent celebrity clients or represent celebrity issues. The good ones do have to know how to play both side. There’s the court of public opinion. There’s the court of law. You’ve got to be good at both. If you’re gonna represent your client effectively right. So as a person with legal training and know having been around this world for a bit unlike some lawyers and some judges really react like Why aren’t you talking to.

S13: Where are you on Ari Melber when do you not like. I’m not that guy. I’m like No I get why Lanny Davis goes on TV I get why David Boyce goes on TV. That’s part of client representation. It just has to be backed up with like the actual stuff. Right. Like I’m I’m I’m fine for plug this I’m all about dessert. Mm hmm. As long as there’s a meal somewhere coming to you right. Yeah yeah yeah.

S8: And what the Trump lawyers never do. Not one of not one of them that he has employed with the Trump lawyers never do is come with the steak they never have the courtroom they never win in the court of law they’re only trying to win in the court of public opinion and that’s where it gets frustrating.

S7: I mean there was a poll there was a story that came out the Washington Post I want to say almost a year ago now I’m kind of detailing the fact that Trump more or less is the most defeated president in court in history that the executive branch has kind of wide discretion the courts really do give the executive branch wide discretion on a host of issues and Trump loses like half the time which is crazy. He should win 90 percent of the time. And the reason why he loses half the time is because he makes shoddy bad nonsensical legal arguments all the time that the court is just kind of forced to be like do that’s not true. That’s just not true. Yeah yeah. And that’s why we are here like there’s no like with the subpoena fight. Right. Which yeah get to that. There’s no argument there’s no argument that his people cannot show up for subpoenas.

S8: I’m sure your listeners have heard Trump people I’m sure they’ve heard their uncle at Thanksgiving who watches Fox news all the time talked about well you know there’s executive privilege there. Trump has exactly but he does not. That is not how executive privilege works the quickest plainer and you can use this at any you know the holidays are coming up you can use this at any Halloween or Thanksgiving party you want to. The whole concept of privilege is that you give it up when you disclose it publicly. Right. So whatever privilege I may have with anybody. The minute I bring a third party into the room that kills the privilege. So for instance people know that there’s a spousal privilege right. Like if I tell my wife I killed that person my wife is not allowed to go into court and say like oh my husband told me he killed them. She doesn’t have to go in. The privilege extends to me. I said it to my SO I own the privilege. I can prevent my. This is as can be controversial. For this reason exactly it comes up a lot and kind of domestic violence situations. But the privilege attaches to me if I pillow talk basically is not my wife’s right to disclose without my consent or my right to disclose without my wife’s consent it.

S7: But the minute I tell somebody else. Mm hmm. Hey buddy I did that. Yeah. And guess what my wife can run her mouth as much she wants to. Yeah. The minute she broke in the field yeah. I mean she tells somebody else Hey Mike I did this. Then I can tell all her secrets right. The privilege does not survive disclosure to a third party. The most obvious reason why Trump does not have executive privilege over this whole host of people that he is claiming executive privilege over is that he keeps bringing in third parties to tell people about the thing that he allegedly has privilege over so whatever privilege he might have had to keeping the Ukraine phone call secret which I think he probably did have evaporated when he released the transcript or the memo. The transcript of the phone call. That’s it we’re done here. No more executive privilege. Bye bye. Bye bye. Diane released it yourself right. He does this all the times once he talks to a third party once he talks to Corey Lewandowski who is not in the executive branch and thus would have no executive privilege whatsoever. We’re not too happy about it. Lauren dusky or he talks about it to Giuliani even guess what the privilege evaporates. Yeah it’s gone.

S6: It’s not a clean room anymore.

S7: There’s this term that he has no executive privilege argument to stand on to block any of these subpoenas. Which then means he has no arguments to block the subpoenas. There’s just there’s just none. It doesn’t exist. He’s making it up.

S5: Yeah. So what happens. I mean I read this. I’m reading this in a annotated Washington Post version and it’s filled with all kinds of bold and italicized phrases which are sort of like into on Twitter they would definitely be caps and a lot of never before in our history ever breaking every past precedent last. This is a strategy to influence the next election. I spoke to a chess grandmaster once about the different theme park chess and tournament chess because a park chess champion had just become the first ever grandmaster in tournament chess and park chess. You probably know this is like a really emotional game played on a short timer where you force errors right in your opponent’s he just meant to menace him and to making mistakes and tournament players can lose to park players because they get unbalanced also. But if you’re cool you know if you’re cool and rational you just let that be noise and play the game with long term. But I still like legally unsure of myself enough that I get a little bit intimidated by a letter like this. It’s just like it’s so and fabric. But lawyers who are not and I take it. Adam Schiff will not be ideally Nancy Pelosi and the others will not be. What did they do with this. Because there’s so much you know if you have a toddler you have ever had a toddler. There’s so much just like well you know super nanny. Tell me what to do since my son will not get off the sidewalk. That’s what’s happening right now. You know which is like there’s no great parenting technique when your kid is boneless and won’t move and it somehow made themselves like you know. And that’s what it feels like with them. They just seem like they won’t move.

S13: Yeah I mean first of all I don’t think Nancy Pelosi can be intimidated by like General Zod. I think you’re right that has ever happened in her life. Yeah but no I mean one of the issues that I have we’ve talked about before the congressional subpoena power ends up looking weak in a situation where the present United States violates his oath of office and refuses to play bar ball where the attorney general United States who is the chief law enforcement officer in the country refuses to enforce duly executed congressional subpoenas. Like when the when the A.G. will not use their enforcement power because the A.G. basically is the one in control of the police when they won’t use their enforcement power to enforce congressional subpoenas. We are in a constitutional crisis. Yeah. So I argue that the Congress has inherent subpoena power. That means power that they do not have to cross-check with the A.G.. And under that inherent subpoena power their contempt power does include the right to jail people for a year now for up to a year for refusing to comply. Has that ever been done. It is not. And the reason why well it hasn’t been done without the agent like the A.G.. Then what usually happens Congress holds them a good and then the A.G. comes knocking on your door and you like I think you’re gonna want answer the subpoena. Here’s some handcuffs. See my energy is the one but not energy is the one that’s part of the problem.

S8: You also has been held in contempt right for who’s was been helping you who should also recuse himself from this entire thing is implicated in the scandal and the apparent illegality.

S5: Look the Congress Elena Kagan come down and handcuff him.

S8: Well that’s the thing though. The question I don’t think is so much who has the kind of legal power does this Congress have the legal power to jail Gordon song land or or or whoever or Don McGann. I think they clearly do. The question is who physically who physically.

S5: That’s why I’m talking about this time swearing to on the street where I’m just like Supernanny parenting person from Good Morning America. Come and actually just pick up my child and then seatbelt him in to a seat in the preschool room because I simply can’t do this part and that’s what I keep wondering here. When does it come down to you homo. These are bodies of people that need to be moved either into the seat in front front of Congress where they can blah blah. They want to you know answer some questions or they need to be sitting somewhere where they’re no longer a danger to justice and so I think there are two answers.

S9: One the sergeant of arms of the Congress people know the sergeant of arms of the Congress because he is the one who stands up and says Mr. Speaker the president of the United States from this that he Yeah I know if he can fight you can fight but if he has he has the authority I believe to jail people who are in contempt of Congress. I don’t know if he can fight who I do know can fight are the Capitol Police. Now technically the cap the DC Capitol Police technically they report to Congress they do not report to the president technically. Now I don’t know how you make this happen but it’s almost like Nancy Pelosi needs to be front list I’ll find one sergeant on the Capitol Police who is willing to get this done who was willing to show up in a squad car to one of these people’s houses and jail them because here’s the thing. If Congress does this the other kind of aspect to the law here I’m confident that Congress has the authority to jail them because if they did jail them if they could physically take custody of them who has the authority to break them out like if if if somebody if if. Let’s imagine it’s because Gordon Sunderland is as the newest one so let’s imagine him. I’m really thanking him again like I think he’s the big kahuna but all right. If Sunlen is jailed is handcuffed to Nancy Pelosi’s boudoir let’s say for instance. OK who has the authority to break into Nancy Pelosi’s House and free him. Christopher Ray of the FBI right. I don’t think so. I don’t think legally so. Like at some. And I hate to be talking about this. I’m not trying to be flip here. No but this is where we are. We need some bodies with actual handcuffs with actual police authority to act in accordance with the laws of the country as opposed to the corruption of Bill Barr. Yeah. And the only people I can think of that have that could do that right now because we assume that the actual military is under the thumb of Trump. We assume that the actual FBI is under the thumb of of of Trump. Finally. What about the supreme court martials are they. The Supreme Court Martial. I don’t know if they can fight.

S11: Yeah. When I don’t know if they can fight. I mean because I’m what I’m saying is that literally somebody has to like go to his house. Yeah and like grab him. Yeah. He might resist. I just go right here. You say the toddler mom.

S13: The other thing is that with the supreme court martials like that would have to be under the authority of Roberts right. Yeah. Which is not something we should have to get to yet. I’m saying under Paul who does Pelosi have under her direct authority that she can point to and say Go get me that man. And I believe that if it’s not the sergeant arms then I believe it’s a friendly person on the Capitol Police.

S5: It could be the rock. You know I mean that’s the kind of thing the rock. Why was the rock even put on this planet except to do good. I don’t like massive frame.

S13: I don’t like talking about citizen’s arrests because those end up in riots too often. Like yeah right but we don’t want to say we don’t want we don’t want a citizen behind him the rock or otherwise to try to take vigilante matters into their own hands.

S10: But for optics what you’re proposing is us quite dangerous.

S5: The impeachment inquiry up to and including removal has mass public support. But once you start seeing old men in suits hauled off into prison who are to be. This ought to be a we’re in a civilized seemingly civilized society. Down I think you think people will like it.

S10: Let me ask you a question is that park chess or tournament chess. You’re talking about.

S13: I think we’re in park chess but I think we’re at the point in park chess where the loser has flipped over the table. So if you play chess you know that if you knock your king over you concede right. Trump has not knocked us King over he’s just slept over the whole table. Yeah right. Right. Technically he’s conceded technically he’s admitted to the crime in public right. Technically he has conceded defeat legally on this issue but he’s just not playing the game anymore. Right now one of the things the Democrats have to stop doing is like in the park Chess scenario where the other guy has kicked over the table and you know it’s stolen your hat. You can’t be the guy sitting there saying like but but you’re your king you Dr. King over. I win. Technically we’re beyond that now. All right. The Democrats have to understand they keep trying to fight a person who does not play by the rules right. With more rules. Yeah. How is that ever going to work.

S5: That was actually brilliant. Because if you’ve knocked over the whole table you’ve also knocked over the king dam and end user.

S13: OK. But like now what. Right. Right. So I think to go back to your your child screaming analogy I have a 7 year old and a 4 year old when I am in the comfort of my own home. I let them cry it out like good parents posting here. I just wait them out. I have more patients than they do medically.

S7: All right well I am in public. I leveraged my vastly superior physical strength against it. Yes that’s right. Pick them up carry them kicking and screaming into some kind of secure location until they sort their issues out. Yes. Right. And Trump is the guy kicking and screaming. And what we don’t know is if the Democrats in Congress have vastly more physical strength we believe they do not. We believe that the Democrats are in a situation where where the top one is kicking and screaming but the toddler is the rock. Yes and you can’t actually wrangle him. Yeah.

S13: So I’m talking about like where’s the tranquilizer dart. Where’s the 10 guys. You know. Yeah. What do you what do you do then.

S10: We’re moving into a very weird and interesting place from the by following the law.

S5: I mean and also you know you say like let’s think about a drug dealer here of course you would go arrest this guy and push him into a paddy wagon like there’s no plot that precedes otherwise. Like if someone has shown so much contempt for the subpoena process like I’m thinking in this way but this is how Trump has always been thinking.

S12: Mm hmm. This is how he’s always been offering quite frankly. This is how McConnell has always been operating like they have been operating with the impunity of knowing that the only way to stop them is to get physical and someone. Is this again a physical arrest a fit like a physical destruction of their power. They know that absent that they can play the rules game as you can. You can make the Democrats keep playing the rules game as long as they keep ignoring the rules. It doesn’t matter like we live in a country of raw political power we don’t have to. No I do not say this lightly. Right now we are not living in a nation of laws. We are living in a nation of raw political power. Mitch McConnell had the raw political power to prevent Barack Obama from ceding his Supreme Court justice. Had I been Barack Obama in that situation had I been Merrick Garland in that situation and what I wouldn’t know a would Merrick Garland shop for work on Monday yeah show up for work on Monday and sit there and decide cases until a cop comes and arrest you. That’s what you do because that’s how they are acting right. You know that you have to be willing to fight that kind of disregard for law with I argue more disregard right. You’re going to tell me that I can’t fill my constitutional oath and appoint a Supreme Court justice. I’ll go tell my supreme court justice sit in his goddamn seat until I tell him to get up. Right. Similarly with with Trump right now like he is counting on the fact that Democrats are going to keep trying to follow something that and that is that isn’t a rules based world. And as long as the Democrats live in a rules based world he always wins because he doesn’t follow them.

S5: And not because they’re getting flustered by his saber rattling or they’re paying attention to the polls or whatever but they’re not scared of him they just yet. There’s no way. I mean it’s the toddler on the street thing and there’s no way to I mean I guess he could wait them out. But this thing needs to move along. One thing that I think is frustrating is a lot of us who wanted an impeachment investigation a long time ago simply wanted it because it would have it would seem to compel greater obedience from them. Just putting it under the sign of impeachment engaging the public in this process and apparently people. Impeachment is a kitchen table issue. People are quite interested. Seven out of 10 people are following it somewhere between moderately and very closely.

S12: It is not a coincidence that this man. This idiot. This problem. Yeah I made this phone call. This criminal illegal mob like phone call to President Zelinsky of the Ukraine the day after Mueller testified that doesn’t that’s not an accident. Because if you remember the day after Mueller testified all you saw on the news was like Well that didn’t go well for the Democrats I mean sure Boehner laid out ten thousand counts of problems and obstruction but he certainly he didn’t. He looked a bit old while he was doing it right. You saw on TV the entire night Democrats basically acting like somebody stole their dog.

S14: Well you know we got to keep going forward cuz like that.

S7: And so Trump heard all that went around did a victory lap had some fucking cheeseburgers from McDonald’s. And then the next day he’s like All right 20 20 let’s do it again. Back to Crimea. Yeah right. Let’s commit more crimes because it didn’t catch me for the for the previous crimes. The whole point the reason why people like you and I were saying that we should be impeaching the president since you know Democrats took over in November 2018 is exactly because if you do to use another kid analogy you catch your kid with their hand in the cookie jar. And you say nothing. Guess what. Kids eating the cookie. Yeah that cookie be gone. I guess there’s not the kids not going to like reconsider their motives right. If you don’t say anything. Yeah. The kid’s got a kid. Yeah. If you don’t stop Trump. Trump. Trump’s going to Trump. Yeah. He might do it even if you try to stop him. You have to at least try. You have to make it hard for him right.

S12: Make him know that there will be whatever consequences we can bring to bear. There will be and the other thing you have to make him know and I think that to. To talk. And then I want to talk a whole about a lot about the presidential campaign. But there are only a few candidates that are promising the kind of continual post presidency prosecution that we absolutely are going to need not just from Trump but for all of his cronies and criminal friends. And who is that. Come on Harris. Do you ever see Pulp Fiction. Yes. Come on Harris is like Marcellus Wallace going after Butch right. Yeah. She’s here to scour the earth. Yeah. Yes she is. So Collins talking about that kind of correctly I think I think she’s the strongest. Warren has talked about it a little I’ve been kind of happy. She’s not where Kamala is but I’ve been happy with what she said about it. A lot of the Joe Biden people to judge people they’re like oh you can still see them about to do the Obama thing with George Bush. Just that we’re not here to talk about the house we want to move forward with. That would be too painful and traumatic. No screw that. Yeah. Because if you do not stop. If you do not hold these people accountable in office or out of office then they will just keep doing that again. I know all those balls sounds like you’re just saying lock up your political enemies. No I’m not saying lock up people want political enemies. I’m saying prosecute crime yes prosecute criminals who commit crime in plain sight. Do that.

S11: And we don’t have to worry about political enemies. I’m so glad you came. Thank you so much for talking about this today.

S15: Thanks for having my guest today. It’s been Alimi style. He writes for above the law. That’s it for today’s show. What do you think. Ask us questions posed some ideas of your own on Twitter I’m at page 88. The show is at real time cast our show today was produced by Melissa Kaplan and engineered by Mary Jacob. I’m Virginia Heffernan. Thanks for listening to Trump cast.