S1: The following program may contain potty talk.
S2: No guarantee, but it just may be.
S3: It’s Tuesday, June twenty third, twenty twenty from Slate. It’s the gist. I’m Mike Pesca. Today I voted because I am something of a civic hero, or possibly because I am extremely inefficient in the acquisition of boastful stickers on my chest. Yes, I voted. Which implies quite strongly as you see it on my torso. Shame. Shame on you for not voting.
S1: But mainly I voted because there was an actual race whose outcome was actually in doubt. Now, if you follow politics, you may have heard of the race in the Bronx between Elliot Engle and Jamal Bowman. Could be close. That’s not my race or the race in Westchester. To fill need a Lowys open seat. Also not my race. I live in Brooklyn’s 9th, where seven term incumbent Yvette Clarke took on a challenger who came close last time around. Adam Bunker Decco plus also in the race, was a democratic socialist type guy, a community organizer named Isaiah James last night to decide who I was going to vote for today. I watched in full the only debate that I could find among these three candidates.
S4: You know, clearly, these gentlemen Knutson’s the community that I grew up here. And I know what happens with me right now isn’t I don’t. Don’t bring that. I’m from here. My father came here. My family’s business, 19, said stuff like. Stop, stop that nonsense. Like I’m from here.
S5: Edifying. In truth, I’m old fashioned. I am not going to tell you how I voted. My my dad didn’t tell his students when he was a sixth grade social studies teacher. And I do not believe I, as a journalist should tell you how I voted. I would say that it wasn’t Isaiah. James, I’m not a socialist, but I did like the fellow’s comportment. I think Yvette Clarke probably has more stated positions that align with mine. For instance, what they were arguing in that clip was that she saw there was a need for a curfew in New York City after the most chaotic nights of protests and looting. Bunkered Decco did not. But Bunker Decco seems sharp and more of the moment, shall we say. Plus, I like saying Bunker Decco Maginn if he was my congressman for years and years, Congressman Bunker Decco. But here’s my main point is this research that I did last night.
S1: It was the totality of my exposure to the race. I might have read it come across without asking to a story in The New York Times about this contest. I thought so little about my actual congressperson versus all the nonsense that I have thought about or studied or research or that just occupied my brain. So instead of focusing on something that I could really affect, I was obsessed with and have been and you have to all these things that will not be affecting our lives, for instance. I spent more time on the tick tock teens who tricked Trump than my own member of Congress. I spent more time on the Howard Schultz run for president than my own representative in Congress worrying about Howard Schultz’s run. Reading about it. Reading about people who worried about it. More time on that than I did on the person who had served me in the House of Representatives. I’m not even going to talk about the time I spent thinking or studying if the Jets should resign. Jamal Adams. Yes, but not if he had the Senate or whether I should sign Numaniyah Bill. Lisa, to my fantasy basketball team. I did. It worked out or whether the Mets would change ownership from one distant billionaire to a different distant billionaire. That is in a whole other category of thing. And I will not fault myself for my leisure pursuits. I’m just lucky about the news content. What I allowed to penetrate my brain instead of my actual representative in this a representative democracy. Just look at the news content that I gave some portion of my brain to instead of giving it to who should represent me in Congress. Why in caves? The Shadow App. Andrew Yangs nicknaming his PEX Lexcen Rex. Andrew Yangs serving whipped cream to supporters directly into their mouths. Jim Jordan suit jacket. The Nunez memo. At one point, and it wasn’t that long ago, I could articulate the differences between sihe less Jenko and Urey Lute Sinco ones. A good guy, one’s a bad guy. Had a strong opinion on each. I knew so much about the fourth largest city in Indiana. I can hold forth and have the former fire chief decided to voluntarily step aside, but then had some second thoughts. Maybe it was pushed out. I had opinions or at least paid attention to the National Archives apologizing for digitally altering signs critical of Donald Trump that were visible in photographs of the 2017 women’s march. I can hold forth on a Navy SEALs Trident pin. It meant a lot to me. I know a lot about that more than I did my intended vote for a member of. Congress I’ve followed, Kamala Harris is husband on Twitter. Why? I don’t know. Super excited about Doug Imhoff becoming the first Jewish first man. It makes no sense. And it’s not good. And it troubles me. And I’m blowing the whistle on myself. A few months before the pandemic. I had a guest on the just named Ton Hirsch, who wrote a book called Politics for Power. It really affected me because it described me political hobby ism was the charge that we all think of democracy as a spectator sport, not a participatory endeavor. Now, I could, of course, tell myself, well, it’s somewhat participatory of me because my job or I could tell myself that what’s the use? There’s never really a close race in deep blue Brooklyn, but there was there was yesterday and at about 10, 30 at night, I said, I don’t know anything about this race. Me? Who am I? A guy who knows politics. Pretty ignorant about the Clark bunker, Decco, and possibly James showdown. So I did my research. I spent some hours on it. But it’s not the right way to conceive of one’s role in a democracy. Of course, there was a pandemic and I put on the schedule the in-person meeting of the community board, and I couldn’t go to that because it was canceled. All the things were canceled. Got in the way of me being an active participant, my local democracy, which I wanted to do and still do. And in follow up, if there were any zoo meetings on the local community boards. But I’m going to I vowed to. Now, let’s count. This is part of my accountability exercise because I think I do owe it to myself, my country. Congresswoman Clarke or possibly even Congressman Bunker Decco, on the show today, I spiel about a misunderstood history of the idea of the idea of objectivity. But first, my Slate colleague Seth Stevenson is out with a new podcast called Thrilling Tales of Modern Capitalism, where he takes a company and digs into its history and figures out why it matters now. You know, someone needs to speak up for capitalism like Pollard. It’s all around us and gets no love. Seth Stevenson is that guy. Cruise’s hand gel soup. Video games. What do they all have in common there?
S6: But mirror components of the thrilling tales of modern capitalism, capitalism getting a little bit of a bad name. You know, because of all the excesses there of. But some of the. Tells her quite thrilling. They tell us stories about ourselves. And here to tell those stories is Seth Stevenson. He is Slate’s own. Now, I guess curator and host of this podcast called Thrilling Tales of Modern Capitalism. And Seth. Thanks for coming on. It’s good that we were able to wrangle you. I’m happy to speak with you for the first time during this quarantine. Yeah. It’s good to talk to you, too, Mike. The show was conceived. I think I was I was there for some of the conception. It was conceived before, you know, anyone ever tasted a bat in the town of Wuhan. Right.
S7: That is correct. We were talking about this end of 2019 before went wall. This was just a twinkle in some bats eye. But you know, what’s funny is one of the first episode, one of the first companies that I wanted to do back then was Carnival Cruise Lines, because I just found it to be a fascinating industry with an interesting history and carnival. It had so many mishaps. And back then the peg for an episode I saw you doing was that a couple of Carnival cruise ships had collided just off Cozumel. I don’t know if remember, this was in December. A pair of Carnival cruise ships collided off causing Mel. And there was this very dramatic iPhone video of it. And I thought, oh, she’s another mishap befalls the cruise industry. It just seems like every day you’re here, some new crazy story about something happening with a cruise ship. We gonna do an episode of parties that tried to a few months later and even crazier stuff was happening with cruise ships.
S6: Yeah, cruise ships were one of those industries like, I don’t know, romaine lettuce or something where if they’re in the news, it’s because of a bad thing and our offensive linemen. Right, exactly. The more anonymous, the better. But to blow the whistle on myself, to piggyback on your reference there, I think there’s a lot of classism involved in my looking down at a cruise ship. And by the way, I am not the highest class, but cruise ships do belong to, at least in my perception, a strata of society that’s, you know, more about excessive, perhaps bordering on gluttonous consumption and a definition of entertainment that, let’s say, doesn’t appeal to me. However, as I really thought about this, you know, couldn’t you make the same thing? Not about great works of theater, but Broadway. And we all want Broadway to return. But two thirds of Broadway is just, you know, a Disney musical that didn’t get good reviews anyway. If one person likes to recreate one way, is there a greater harm than the person who like the wreck rate by spending one hundred twenty dollars to see some fake genie from Aladdin sing a song? Sure.
S7: And, you know, and obviously, you know, Broadway has that kind of show and it also has a show like 80s town that is this like this amazing high art. And they see the same thing as kind of true with Kruse’s where, you know, people think of these like mass class, like wedding cake ship cruises around the Caribbean loop. But there are these incredibly high end expensive cruises to the South Pacific, too. There are tears there as well with a sort of different clientele and and a different approach to service and so forth. But I do think, like the bulk of the business is these huge ships that offer very, very cheap accommodations for families and all. You can eat buffets and all you can drink liquor packages. And the appeal of them is that they’re so cheap you can bring your family on a vacation and and see the sights, in a way, see some different ports that you kind of like stumble out into, surrounded by 4000 other tourists. And you’re just not paying very much money for it. And that’s the appeal of those of those sort of like big low end cruises.
S6: The fact that they’re incorporated in Panama or are some in Liberia, that the ships are often flagged in Liberia, the carnival’s Panama. What does that allow them to do? What if they were American registered vessels? What laws would they have to adhere to that they don’t now?
S7: Well, so you’re conflating the company and the vessels, which are two different things, so that the company, you know, Carnival, the company, its headquarters are in Miami, its CEO is in Miami. Its its owner is in Miami and owns the Miami Heat. But the company itself is registered in Panama, which, you know, no one repercussion that they don’t pay U.S. income taxes, which is really, really weird to me that you can have a company clearly based in the United States that doesn’t pay U.S. income taxes. The ships are flagged in you, like you said, like like Liberia would be a classic case, the flagship. I think a lot of carnival ships are flagged in the Republic of the Marshall Islands. The reason to do these things is so that you can not be beholden to U.S. labor laws, wage laws not pay U.S. income tax, maybe sort of skirt around U.S. environmental law. So if you’re out on international waters in a ship flagged in the Republic of the Marshall Islands, owned by a company registered in Panama, and something goes wrong, you can be like, whose jurisdiction is the. It’s totally unclear. Maybe then maybe no one’s in charge. Maybe no one’s going to have any oversight over this.
S8: So you’re a sailor. Does something about the cruise industry or that setup offend you? On a nautical level?
S7: Well, all ships are cool to me. And like the navigational crew of a cruise ship is very cool to me. I mean. Well, I once went on a cruise and got to do some sort of journalistic stuff behind the scenes and meet cadets and meet the captain and go up on the navigational bridge. That is still very cool, operating a gigantic ship like that and bring it in and out of harbors and all and all that. It’s the ship of experience is not extremely nautical, though. You know, as you’re eating your crab legs and it’s you’re like they have these stabilizers on those ships, so it barely rocks at all. There’s like no heel to it at all. It’s not I mean, it’s not a nautical experience for the passengers, but it’s it’s still a nautical operation. So it’s cool. Gnarly. I’d much rather be on a cargo freighter. I’ve been on those. And for me, that’s the big ship to be on.
S8: Yeah. The crab might be expired, though. Now, in your last podcast, which I love the secret history of the future, you did a sailing episode, too, and you talked about, in fact, a form of sailing. Was your solution to one of the hardest conundrums in environmentalism or going fully green, which is, you know, what do you do about transcontinental travel and airplanes? And it was there is a way, there is a way to sail our way out of this fossil fuel problem. This doesn’t have to do with cruise ships. It has to do with, I guess, sailboats.
S7: Yeah. Well, so commercial shipping, cargo freighters, container ships are responsible for a lot of environmental damage. And their carbon emissions are equivalent to like a country like Germany or Canada. And there are lots of people thinking about how to lower their carbon emissions, how to not how they use this heavy, like sludgy fuel oil that belches stuff up into the skies is really bad for the environment. There are people looking at ways to make like electric powered ships are helium, hydrogen powered Shabbas, liquid natural gas powered cargo ships. But I as I say, we had the absolute perfect, environmentally friendly zero emission, zero resource burning technology 150 years ago. And we just a band, we used to sail all of our cargo all over the world all the time. It worked great. They didn’t use any fuel, didn’t have any emissions. And then we got rid of it as soon as we had coal powered ships. And we. And we. And because they’re more reliable in some ways and faster some ways. But we have to I swear, we have the technology now to go back to the age of sail and have gigantic sail powered cargo freighters. I really and there are some people out there trying to make this work and naval architects who are trying to design a sail powered cargo freighter, that that’s realistic and ways that you take advantage of the trade winds like we did in the old days. And we have a system of us like I spoke and hub system with smaller boats. Anyway, there are people working on this and I swear it is possible and I think it could happen and I really hope it will happen. And how much cooler would it be to work on like a sailing cargo vessel than on one of these container ships where you, like, press a button and wake up to 12 hours later and you’re in Singapore?
S6: Did you see the article I think was in The Wall Street Journal about the premiere cruise ship photographer? I did not see this. I wish I’d seen this. So this was great, this guy. And they showed some of his work and you could see why. Yeah. This guy knows how to photograph a cruise ship. And there are people I think it was an executive for either Norwegian or Carnival said I’m I only work with this guy. But because of this guy’s life, he’s now stuck in Bermuda or another. No, I’m sorry. He’s on a cruise ship. He’s on a cruise ship and he can’t get off. And he’s at least as when the article ran like 10 days ago. And he’s you know, there’s so many people, so many crews who are trying to petition governments to let them off. He’s stuck on this cruise ship. So that’s part of it. And I recommend this article. But what I did was there was also a link to where they track every cruise ship in the world. Maybe, you know, this thing from flight trackers. So they track where the cruise ships are. And now with cruise ships with nowhere to go, there are just dozens of them searched like either moored or circling around, I think Bermuda and the Philippines, just dozens and dozens of cruise ships doing nothing. And you could see them on this global tracker map. And it’s kind of well, I guess that’s a not so thrilling tale of capitalism, but it’s definitely because of capitalism.
S7: It’s fascinating. There’s a lot of yeah, there’s a lot of crew on those cruise ships that can’t get off. They can’t find safe harbor. They can’t seem to get them off the ship. It’s it’s a really bad situation. There’s also a somewhat untold story about commercial shipping cruise, containership cruise. A lot of them are stuck on those container ships, too. It’s a crazy situation where the container ships are now going back around the horn again. Are there going back around the Cape of Good Hope? Because because the Suez Canal, the fee for the canal is more expensive. Now, that fuel went when oil dropped to such a low price, the fever of the canal became more expensive. Then you know, the fuel it takes to go all the way around the Cape of Good Hope. And because no one’s in a rush, because buying was so depressed, demand was so depressed, there’s no rush to get the goods there. So they just started shooting their ships around the Cape again, which is fascinating to me. Holy cow.
S6: Do you think that. Well. We’re going through. There’ve been predictions. Do you think it’s going to end? The cruise industry as we know it?
S7: I do not. I do not, because you look at polls, they’ve already had polls out where people are saying, oh yeah, I’m psyched to go book my cruise for 2021. These cruisers and since this episode we did about Carnival ran. I’ve I’ve had them come after me. These hardcore cruisers are so into it. They just love Chris like those. If you’ve met those like hardcore Disneyworld, people like they just love it so much that they’ll take like and I mean, like the thing is, like you’re saying like, oh, maybe this will be the thing that kills the Christmas tree. What about the norovirus? What about the poop cruise where people spent several days surrounded by feces? What about the Costa Concordia in Italy that sank in broad daylight and killed 32 people because the captain wanted to, like, show off? Like, there’s none of it seems to have any effect on the cruise industry. So, no, I don’t think it’ll kill the cruise industry. I think. Cruise industry will, you know, have some sort of like like Kofod 19 theater where they take your temperature on the way in and they are, you know, do their best. So to demonstrate to you that they’re taking this seriously. But I think people will go right back as soon as there’s any window to do so. And Carnival at least little while ago. So they’re going to try to start sailing again in August. People are getting the people who are on cruises that got canceled because of this have these vouchers right. They got these vouchers and the only thing they can do with them is just book another cruise. So people are already using the book cruises next year. So I think it will come back. And I’m not you know, I’m not the only one betting that the Saudi sovereign funds made a gigantic bet on calved, but a huge chunk of carnival at its low point in making up what I think is a pretty solid bet that it’s going to come back.
S8: Yeah, that’s it. In a way, that’s a hedge against oil prices dropping, I guess. But when when cruisers cruising through cruise cruises come at you. How’s it. What’s their tenor? How’s that different from. I don’t know. When you write a political story and people who are impassioned politically or, you know, big Gronkowski, true theories or stuff like that when they come after you, that the cruisers all assume that I’ve never been on a cruise.
S7: First of all, they’re like, I’m sure you’ve never tried. If you just tried it, you would see the beauty that like the delights of cruising. And they just you know, they think I’m a snob. They think I don’t. I just don’t get it right. They know I don’t appreciate the value that you get. You know, when you book your 80 dollar a night room and get, you know, all you can eat buffets and stuff. I see I get why people like it. I just don’t like it. And I think there are a lot of externality is that aren’t so awesome. It’s funny they’re giving you a version of that. You never played the game argument. That’s pretty much that’s. That’s right. Unless you have captain to cruise ship, you’re not authorized to speak about this. And I am only licensed to captain boats up to about 40 feet, so. Yeah.
S5: But, you know, you’ll push it to 42. So what other episodes are you planning?
S7: So far this season we will be doing Domino’s Pizza Yaha, which has actually had its sales go up since this pandemic began and is a company that has a fascinating history. Its founder grew up in an orphanage. It invented the corrugated pizza box that everyone uses. Now it gets it’s got a company of remarkable scale and efficiency. And an interesting story we’re doing that we are you I think you mentioned where do we get the games, the makers of Fortnights? We are doing Victoria’s Secret, which was already in big trouble before the pandemic happened and now is in very, very dire straits. Who else?
S6: We will be doing McKinsey, the consultancy, and I think I named them all I can remember. But that’s a lot of companies. It’s a lot of companies. It’s a broad range. And it’s all hosted by Seth Stevenson. The name of the show is Thrilling Tales of Modern Capitalism. Seth, a pleasure. Always a pleasure with you, Mike.
S5: And now the spiel. There is debate roiling newsrooms over objectivity. Actually, it’s not a debate. It seems like a debate, but it’s really a rebuttal to a premise that hasn’t been advanced in years and years. One side of the debate is expressed by journalist Wesley Lowery in today’s New York Times, where he writes, The mainstream has allowed what it considers objective truth to be decided almost exclusively by white reporters and their mostly white bosses. And those selective truths have been calibrated to avoid offending the sensibilities of the white reader. He also says conversations about objectivity, rather than happening in a virtuous vacuum, habitually focus on predicting whether a given sentence, opening paragraph or entire article will appear objective to a theoretical reader who is invariably assumed to be white. The public radio producer, Morgan Givens, was chastised by his voices for tweeting. Donald Trump is a white supremacist fascist. He was invited on his own show one day to explain why it was unfair to deem his remarks a violation of NPR’s guidelines for journalists inability to call out white supremacy in the United States because the two are so inextricably tied.
S9: And so I stand. But what I said, because it’s the truth and there’s the truth, cannot be held hostage or captive. For those who do not know it yet. And for those who have not done the reading yet. And for those who do not understand that, it is a constant, a constant life battle to unlearn what this white supremacist, capitalist patriarchal system has taught us. And so unlearning that means that we have to also unmask the things that make it so we cannot call the truth, the truth. That means we have to point to the guidelines that say black journalists need to be silent in the face of what they know to be true. And then also acknowledge that these guidelines are based on a white supremacist idea of objectivity.
S5: And that’s what I want to talk about. A quite narrow focus on the one aspect of this argument that is going unremarked upon, not the truth part, the whiteness part, the blackness, the fascism, the unmaking, the unlearning or the supremacy. I’m here to talk about objectivity. The history of the idea of objectivity as an ideal. It’s a curious thing, citing objectivity as a goal of newsrooms, positing that the media, the mainstream media every day gets into work and says, how could we be objective? Because as a member of the media for 20 plus years, I have to tell you, we don’t do that. I don’t mean oh, we’re not so high minded. We don’t constantly pontificate about our calling, man. Oh, man. Do we do that? Or at least in the newsroom that I’ve been in. We do that. They just or we or the people I’ve talked to or the people who try to articulate what a newsroom is about. Just rarely cite the idea, if ever cite the idea of objectivity per say, if it is cited, it cited as an outdated notion or a punching bag. I began working on a show called On the Media in the late 90s, and at the time it was hosted by a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist named Alex Jones. Not that one, the good one who Wesley Lowery actually quotes in his piece. But even back then, I remember Joan saying objectivity was all but impossible. It’s not something to really strive for. It’s kind of a fiction. Then Brooke Gladstone and Bob Garfield took over hosting. And during my time with them, they drilled into me, into us, into the listeners. Objectivity isn’t really what journalism should be about, nor is balance. Definitely not balance. Fairness. Yes, truth. Try as hard as you can to get there. But objectivity is a false God sometimes. Outlets that aren’t news media try to ding the actual news media for not being objective.
S10: As CNN journalist is claiming to be objective and nonpartisan while slamming conservative news outlets. What? America’s Hans Hubbard has more. But that is O, A and N.
S5: They are involved in a kind of journalistic cause play at best. The idea of objectivity as being a stated ideal of journalists hasn’t been accurate for years. In 1996, the Society of Professional Journalists acknowledged that they dropped objectivity from its ethics code. There is an interesting book called The Encyclopedia of American Journalism, and the author Stephen Vaughn goes through the history of when objectivity began to be cited and when it fell out of favor. References to the word objectivity is a core journalistic principle were not found in a search of sources about journalism published before the 20th century and are rare before nineteen thirty where it did appear. For instance, in a revision of a famous textbook from 1913, the implication was that objectivity meant the absence of both reporters opinions and newspapers policy influence. That seems fair. But soon that changed, he writes. While some people treated objectivity as essential to journalism early in the century, others raised doubts. Maynard Wilson Brown in 1936 dissertation concluded that Americans were not prepared for World War One because pre-war correspondents from abroad adhere to observable facts and did not interpret European conditions. Some commentators have speculated that the 1929 stock market crash led to the first serious doubts about objectivity. Most discussions of objectivity is decline point to inadequate reporting of Senator Joseph McCarthy’s early 1950s efforts to identify communists in America. Since 1960, many have dissected objectivity as an inadequate journalistic principle. So, in other words, he paints a picture that objectivity was actually held out to be an ideal for an extremely short period of time. And frequently every 10 years or so, there’d be a collective reconsideration of the notion of objectivity.
S10: In fact, reconsideration or rejection is more common to how journalists think of objectivity than it adherence to it. And we are in another such moment. And if you look back, we’ve actually been in this moment frequently time and time again. James Poniewozik writing for. Time magazine. The End of objectivity. 2010. He writes, The days of pretending that journalists are dispassionate info bots are ending. And that’s good. Trust built on openness is stronger than trust. Built on an agreed upon fiction 2015. Matt Taibbi of Rolling Stone writes an op ed in The New York Times. Objective journalism is an illusion. 2017 on Medium. The radio journalist Lewis Wallace writes. Objectivity is dead and I’m okay with it. And now Wesley Lowery writes, a reckoning over objectivity. This is like a reckoning over the gold standard or the idea of the melting pot or a reckoning over 70 80 chlorofluorocarbons, the supremacy of the printed word or ending your sentences and prepositions. All of these things have long since been reckoned with. Find a journalism school that teaches objectivity. Find a big city editor who will ding a reporter for not being objective. He or she might object to a graph, a sentence, a conceit that’s one sided or unfair. Or maybe even inaccurate. I don’t think there are many editors who will yell at their reporters for not being objective. Bias is a quality to check slant and spin and leaving implications that maybe you didn’t even know you were leaving. Those are worthy topics. That’s why editors have jobs. And now, granted, I don’t know all the dinosaur denizens of every newsroom, but by and large, the idea of objectivity has been slaid discarded and disposed of long ago. It mostly exists as a rhetorical Bozo the clown bop bag. It’s no one’s idea of an ideal opponent or a true threat. But you could keep hitting it and it keeps coming back for another slugging. If all these arguments about not being objective, where the level of difficulty to argue them is nil, we’re instead required to argue something like why I as a journalist can have my own truth or imagine reading why. Truth is inherently fungible and personal or even subjective. Or maybe one of these articles can be framed as why journalism has to embrace arguments on each and every page, even the front page, and still retain credibility. Well, those would be interesting articles to read. I’d think they would be harder arguments to make, though not impossible, but I would be, in fact, more interested in reading them than in repeatedly bopping the objectivity bozo one more time.
S11: And that’s it for today’s show, Margaret Kelly, just producer, hopes a reckoning comes for the Book of the Month Club Leaded Gasoline and Upper Volta. Dan Schrader, the producer of The Gist, was off. We had help from Joel Patterson, who thinks the world needs to grapple with the idea that hydrogen is a preferable lighter than air gas supposed to helium. And also, we need to finally settle the question, Twix or summit bars. The gist? I also had some fairly deep thoughts about the pros and cons of purchasing Greenland. Not as stupid as it may seem. Was the thing I knew the beats of. But in hindsight, it was stupid. Thank you. Hindsight, your gift for Adepero du Peru. And thanks for listening.