Free Britney. From Her Fans.

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Speaker 1: That’s it.

Speaker 2: Welcome to the Wave Fleets podcast about gender feminism and its Britney bench.

Speaker 3: The concept is like taking place at a school and it’s kind of my idea also, and it takes place out of school and kids can’t wait.

Speaker 4: The pop star shaved her own head Friday. Spears showed up at a San Fernando Valley salon requesting the hairless do. The salon owner said she tried to talk her out of it, but Spears insisted on shaving her head after her main event.

Speaker 3: They could be dead by now, but they’ve both resurrected their career and the public has forgiven them because even at 16.

Speaker 4: Shakespeare’s more of a cautionary tale, despite provocative videos playing to the schoolgirl fetishes of dirty old men. Justin Timberlake has apologized to Britney Spears after a new documentary led to criticism of how he treated her during and after their relationship. He also apologized to Janet Jackson. The woman got good care. Britney is alive because of it. There’s very few celebrities have that kind of enlightened people around Britney Spears devastated by the fact her sons have not seen or spoken to her in six months. Liam really.

Speaker 2: Allowed it. Every episode, you get a new pair of women to talk about the thing we just can’t get off our minds. And today you’ve got me. Nicole Lewis former senior editor at Slate and me.

Speaker 5: Daisy Rosario Senior Supervising Producer of audio here at Slate.

Speaker 2: Britney Spears is newly released from her conservatorship. And for the first time in what feels like decades, she’s speaking up and openly about her experiences. And, of course, her family is really not happy about that. So this family feud right now is playing out very, very publicly. It’s playing out in news outlets. It’s playing out on the Australian version of 60 Minutes and on Instagram. And so all of this very public back and forth has kind of left me feeling like we’ve really come full circle to that moment from before.

Speaker 2: Britney Spears was sequestered by her father. I watched all of this when I was a teenager. This was happening to her when she was much younger. And so we’ve we’ve all grown up and being a grown woman, kind of looking back on her treatment as a young pop star. And her treatment today has brought up all these sort of new thoughts and complexities about, you know, her past and present situation. And I just felt like we really had to unpack this. So, Daisy, why did you want to talk about it?

Speaker 5: I just feel like I’ve been watching Britney Spears from the jump, right? Like we’re literally born the same year. I, you know, kind of watched as she came in and then, you know, became this massive pop star like her, you know, debut single Hit Me Baby One More Time was like legit, massive. Like, I was the right age for TRL and all those things. I wasn’t a really big Britney fan. I was kind of personally annoyed at the fact that pop music and pop groups were coming back in and like such a big way. But I really saw this at all of the different points, like I even was living in Los Angeles kind of when a lot of the paparazzi stuff was happening.

Speaker 5: I remember when people like Perez Hilton were becoming very popular online, like, so it just feels to me like this has been happening throughout and it’s something that has made me uncomfortable with everything that’s going on. As someone who does still follow her and has actually come around to really like and respect her as a pop star and just a human who has watched what she’s gone through.

Speaker 5: It’s it also really interests me to have this conversation because I’m someone who thinks a lot about trauma and the way that trauma affects us. You know, I have a background in health and science reporting looking at trauma and toxic stress was a lot of focus of what I did over the years. And, you know, those two things, even though this was popular culture based, like those two things have always felt related to me. I can’t help but think of those things when I watch so much of this situation.

Speaker 2: On this first segment, we’re going to reflect on Britney’s past before the conservatorship and how media mothering and mental health have all really been weaponized against her. We’re here to talk about Britney Spears mental health, motherhood, media, probably many more things. But Daisy, can you can you remind us about what was going on all those years ago? What do you remember?

Speaker 5: I mean, late night talk shows. She was the punchline for a very significant time.

Speaker 3: I think everybody always thought she had a different relationship to young girls. Everyone now they look back and they’re like, what happened to your sweet image that you used to be? And I’m like, Then when I came out, you thought I was too provocative. It’s like you could never win. No matter what you do at the end of the day. You can’t please everybody.

Speaker 5: This is where I think the fact that I am literally like the same age as her plays into it for me, because I don’t think I had like deeply critical thoughts at the time. But I remember thinking stuff like, well, at that age I go to clubs too. It’s just like nobody’s watching everything I’m doing. And also everything that she was doing that. Everything that she did, that kind of, you know, in some ways maybe played against this like good girl image because she was like the super hot girl next door, right? Like that was kind of the way that she had really been marketed. So it also became like, oh, she’s she’s going and doing these things that betray her image. And it’s like, well, maybe they betray her image, but they’re completely normal for someone her age.

Speaker 2: It’s not just that she’s a young person, right? She’s a young woman. She’s a young girl. She’s a young Southerner. She’s a young blonde woman. Like, there are real societal expectations. And you kind of mention this, but it reminds me of like this was the era of like the purity ball, right? Like this was the era of, like, virgin. Do you remember that?

Speaker 2: Like, yes. Right. Like that whole intellectual and purity and like our fathers having an outsized role in all of that. Creepy, right? This was that same era. And Britney Spears was like the peak female pop star at the time. And so it just this sort of like tension and this, you know, this like cognitive dissonance of the early, early 2000s. We were clearly not comfortable and not ready to grapple with female sexuality and female empowerment and, you know, teenage sexuality at at that time, we just did not have the tools, the skills, the language. I wonder if we’ve even come far enough now. I kind of think that things have changed a little bit. But, you know, Britney Spears was really the testing ground for how far maybe could we go. And I think, you know, you started in and maybe this is the next thing that we should head towards.

Speaker 2: But talking about the breakdown and I just think, you know, listening to you reflect on all of it that I’m like it’s so clear to me that all of the overexposure, that all of the expectation, the framing of her as supposed to be this sort of virginal, saving herself for marriage, you know, kind of woman, it heightens it heightens the sort of chaos or disappointment that we that was then heaped on her as she started to unravel. But talking about the breakdown and I just think, you know, listening to you reflect on all of it that I’m like it’s so clear to me that all of the overexposure, that all of the expectation, the framing of her as supposed to be this sort of virginal, saving herself for marriage, you know, kind of woman, it heightens it heightens the sort of chaos or disappointment that we that was then heaped on her as she started to unravel.

Speaker 2: Right. That like you can’t go you go from from having just this intensely crafted kind of persona that you’re trying to adhere to. And then when the real use starts to break through her, you can no longer kind of hold that weight, that pressure, stay inside that box. You know, you’re judged even more critically because people are so mad that you’re not upholding this expectation, this, you know, of being together. And and and it definitely did not come out. I mean, certainly people probably felt a lot of care for Britney Spears. But I just remember the public sort of spectacle around it was mocking and it was a spectacle. And it wasn’t about this poor girl. Like, what have we done right? It wasn’t that way at all. And how do you remember those moments?

Speaker 5: Oh, yeah. It was very, very much covered is like, look at what she’s doing. She’s gone bananas. Like, who is this person? And there were so many things that felt like direct reactions to the way that she was being followed, that even then, like we didn’t look at at the time and go like, oh yes, like that makes sense that she would be responding that way. I think things like some of the documentaries that have come out have helped give some context. But, you know, just even thinking of obviously her very famously shaving her head and forgotten detail that to me then even really stuck out at the time was, you know, she was so used to having extensions in her hair constantly. And that was a big part of kind of like what she was saying about shaving her head like she was she was just tired of having all this stuff in her head. Right. And so those things, it’s like, yes. Does it seem. Bananas to be doing it the way that she did it.

Speaker 5: Sure. But she’s also not living a life that the rest of us are living. She is being followed around. She is, you know, having people harass her. And, you know, at that point, she had children and the paparazzi never stayed away, even when she had these small, small children with her. And, you know, it’s really only even the last few years. Overall, in terms of celebrity, that there’s been a real push to like kind of leave the children of celebrities alone. But at the time, there was, you know, none of that. And it really felt like yeah, like she was kind of picking up the mantle of like, you know, celebrity acting out as a parent about like Michael Jackson dangling his son over a balcony, had, you know, kind of started. It was just it really felt like it was just like this is to be mocked. This is to be horrified by this is to be looked at like this person is not enjoying all the gifts of their success.

Speaker 2: You can’t separate what’s happening to her from the fact that she’s a woman and now a mother at this point. And so one of the most kind of iconic images that seared into my mind is this video of her driving with her son on her lap right in the front seat of the car. And just the level of outrage that people had about this. Right. When you get children involved or when people feel like, oh, my God, this person is creating an unsafe environment for their child, then it takes that sort of moral panic up a whole new level. And so, you know, you you start to see that like there’s a certain new kind of tenor to the discourse about what kind of mother Britney is capable of being.

Speaker 2: Right. And again, no, like you said, there’s no context. There’s no compassion, empathy about like all that she’s been through, all that she’s been through so publicly, it’s just this sort of this scorn and repudiation. And again, just like we probably were not equipped to have or certainly were not equipped to have a conversation about female sexuality and teenage sexuality and empowerment in the early 2000, I don’t think we were able to really talk very well about mental health and wellness and well-being.

Speaker 2: And, you know, so much has changed from then to now, especially with respect to our pop stars. You know, this is not at all the same thing, what I’m thinking about, but it’s similar. The theme is the same about Jay-Z coming out and talking about going to therapy, you know, last year, two years ago. Right. It’s like celebrities were not talking about therapy at the time. I just you know, Jay-Z is one of the biggest rap stars. And, you know, I just think what a difference it could have made if then we were ready for someone like Britney Spears to say, hey, fans, I really need to step back and take time off. Leave me alone. I want to get myself together. There’s stuff that I need to sort of go through. I just think, wow, you know, we just we’re not in that place. I don’t know. We just weren’t we just the language wasn’t there, the culture wasn’t there.

Speaker 2: And and so all of this, I think, really sets it sets the scene, it sets the stage for then everything that’s going on with her now and the conservatorship, her father stepping in, her family stepping in, and really Britney disappearing from, you know, in many ways from that public spotlight. And I don’t know, there’s just, again, so much to unpack.

Speaker 5: By and large, when the conservatorship was initially happening, I would say people thought it was weird, but also that it was probably necessary, like the way that her behavior had been covered and the way that it had been shown to us via the media. I think it really made the case in a way of like, oh, this is something that she needs, right? Not that we talk about conservatorships much, not that people understand much of what they are. But at the time, I would say that people really, by and large saw it as like, you know what, somebody does need to step in. And that also complicates the way that it all played out down the line.

Speaker 3: This is a story about a thermoelectric.

Speaker 2: We’re going to take a break here. But if you want to hear more from Daisy and myself on another topic, check out our Weaves Plus segment is this feminist where today we’re debating whether the viral song Baby Daddy Free is feminist. So fast forward to today to now to the year of our Lord 2022. And we’re still talking about Britney Spears. We are yet again talking about Britney Spears. Motherhood is still an issue. Mental health still up there. Right. And the media, these are themes that we just cannot seem to shake. And so, again, Daisy, if you could give us the sort of like lay of the land. Right. Britney Spears has been recently released from her conservatorship. How did we get there and what does this really mean for her?

Speaker 5: So Britney Spears is out of her conservatorship. And, you know, again, it still remains kind of a tricky topic in the sense that her fans were able to use the pressure of the media to kind of help push the realities of her conservatorship to the front in a way that she had not been able to do on her own.

Speaker 5: What we’ve learned now is, you know, she didn’t have control of her own, you know, social media. She had people speaking for her. She was being scheduled. Like way too much, you know? I mean, it just was all of this awfulness of the conservatorship, but then also it was social media and the way that fans were able to kind of connect and rally together, that helped bring an end to this. So I think it’s also created something of a double edged sword for her. And this is one of the things I really appreciated about your article, Nicole, which of course we’ll be linking to in the show notes. You should absolutely read it if you’re listening to this.

Speaker 5: But, you know, it does it becomes complicated when the fans themselves have been able to kind of use these mediums. They have not been kind to her to help free her. And then. They are still really wanting to engage with her. And now we’ve also had her ex, Kevin Federline, as well as, you know, her son’s actually speaking out in media or not even necessarily speaking out. In the case of Kevin Federline, more like leaking audio of her talking to the kids in ways that feel both really intrusive and as if, like, we have learned nothing from the larger conversations that we just had about her in this whole situation.

Speaker 2: I guess what I’m thinking about now is like, what does it mean for someone who’s who at the time of like forming their identity, becoming who they are, you know, individually eating and, you know, trying to figure out who am I and what’s my voice, right? That at the time that Britney Spears was doing all of that, she was the most famous pop star in America. And then you her spotlight is really in her voice, really. And her sense of autonomy and herself is taken away by her father, you know, underneath the idea that it’s for her own good. And then she needs to get better and get well and get treatment and get help and.

Speaker 2: All right. And there’s some additional things going on. But then to all of a sudden get that back right to be to be now released and to be freed and to have this really adoring fanbase on your side who are primed also by these early experiences of hers with the media. So they already see her as a little bit I mean, certainly not a little bit, but as a huge victim.

Speaker 2: Right. That that she was victimized in the media, victimized by her father. And so it just really flattens this narrative or this experience that she’s having that I think is extraordinarily complex into a story about, you know, there’s good guys, there’s bad guys. Her dad is clearly trying to just take her money and take her away and put her away and lock her away. And she needs she needs help. She needs to be saved, you know, hashtag free, Britney Spears. I mean, that’s can you imagine what that might be like for someone to kind of go through and to be sitting in this sort of silent, sequestered space and thinking, there are people out there on my side who seem to get it, you know, this connection that it fosters, this I don’t know the sense of wanting to perform for them or with them or give something to them. Or I would imagine, too, that there’s some amount of but I mean, desperation is the word that I used in my article.

Speaker 2: Right. Because so much of this feels like there’s a lot of desperation. Right. That that also this need for attention in the spotlight, you know, that was stoked and implanted in her, I think, from from being young and being a celebrity. So I just it’s just wow. Ryan It just so layered and so nuanced and so much going on there.

Speaker 5: And that’s her part of it gets so tricky for me in the sense of I think that for her, you know, not necessarily every single fan, but the fans that she really feel helped push the Freebritney movement to her. Those are probably some of the only people, even though she doesn’t know them individually, that she could trust on some level these last many years. And so that’s got to be confusing. But I think in general, right, like. When we hear of like a person that’s been kept in a basement for ten years, like we wouldn’t expect to want to like hear every detail about their recovery. And while these are not the exact same thing, it does feel like, okay, so she’s out of this situation right now. That was deeply harrowing and really took away her autonomy, in particular at a time when, you know, I think it’s absolutely not uncommon for women to really be finding themselves more in their thirties.

Speaker 5: Right. So she’s she’s kind of missed out on all of these things. And then the Internet was, you know, sometimes her only real lifeline to any support that kind of talked to her like a human. But she’s also in a situation where she’s been, you know, abused by the medical system. You know, like if you have listen to any of the details of what she talks about in her conservatorship, you know, she talks about being forced to take all these different medications, being taught, being forced to go to therapy and different kinds of therapy that she didn’t enjoy. So, you know, a lot of the things that somebody would probably suggest to someone coming out of a hugely traumatic situation are also things that she has baggage from. And she needs the opportunity to heal from these things in ways that, you know, are good for her.

Speaker 5: But you already have these moments because of the types of things that she’s posting online, in particular when she is not that clothed, let’s say where you have people commenting and saying things like, oh, maybe she actually did need the conservatorship, right? Like because her behavior doesn’t, you know, jive with exactly what they’re expecting. It’s like, oh, well, maybe it actually was worse off than we realized, but it was overall a traumatic situation.

Speaker 5: And people who are freshly out of or in the process of still kind of removing themselves and adjusting to life, you know, after such a hugely traumatic thing, like their behavior does not tend to make sense to us, celebrity or not. Like if you’ve done any real reading about these things or, you know, people who have dealt with some of these issues, I mean, so much of the behavior that happens immediately after is, you know, genuine reaction that doesn’t necessarily come off likable to people. So it’s already hard to me as someone watching this that knows that that’s true for just the average person who gets no attention.

Speaker 5: And then seeing that, she’s also still going to have to try to figure out her place in the world in this very public way, knowing that we’re not going to always have empathy for the things that don’t make sense about it to us, even as it might just be part of the process that she’s going to go through. And I mean, these to me all feel like things that we should not know, but we know them.

Speaker 2: You know, this question of did she need the conservatorship or this this framing that we’re all supposed to believe it was for her own good and now she’s look like she’s on social media half naked. And so obviously, like this is she’s now well and she needs to go back in and all this stuff.

Speaker 2: I think it really completes this bigger question that that it seems like no, I’m like, was anybody asking this? Because this feels like what needed to be asked is like, what does someone like Britney Spears in her position? What do they actually need? Right. Like when you are an adult and you have a mental health issue and you’re an adult and a celebrity and a woman. Right. And you live in the society that we live in. Who cares for you? How do you get how do you access, care and help that doesn’t, you know, go so far to the extreme where her dad is like running her life and running her finances.

Speaker 2: Right. And making her work like and forcing her to have an IUD against her. I mean, unspeakable things. Right. It clearly we can say and a court of law said, okay, this woman does not need this. Right. But what does she need and what responsibility do fans have in terms of like consuming or not consuming? What gets put out? Like, how do we talk about that? And I think that that’s something on a on a larger scale and beyond Britney, we have not really answered very well.

Speaker 2: You know, like I think a big, big piece of it for me that just feels so under-discussed is the fact that all of these people around here, the main agents in her life right now, kind of speaking out and publicly. I mean, I think really shaming her are men. They’re her teenage sons. They’re her ex-husband, her father really, it seems like, hasn’t said that much. But we know that he was, you know, the man behind the conservatorship.

Speaker 2: And so what does that mean? And it just feels so huge that even her teenage sons are like, I wish my mom would stop. And you kind of get it. Like, no teenager wants their mom overexposed and half naked on social media. But I think watching those leaked audio clips or those video clips of her, you know, having these fights with her kids, the thing that, again, really stood out to me was the level of disdain, the level of. Yes, there was it was steeped in misogyny that I just was like these boys, they don’t seem to have any respect for their mom.

Speaker 2: Right. It’s like they’re so frustrated with her. And I just think, oh, my goodness, you can’t strip out the fact that like, she’s been kind of treated like a child rape, stripped of her on her own autonomy by her father. And then she’s got this ex-husband who’s so vindictive to release, like to kind of show that side. And we have no no behind the scenes, deeper look at like what has been going on this whole time. Right. Like we have no we’re we’re jumping into the story ten, 12 years later. And I just think how unfair to her. Right. How unfair.

Speaker 5: These leaks by her ex-husband, you know, her son’s talking to 60 Minutes Australia.

Speaker 4: For Sean Preston and Jayden. They’re very famous. Mum’s very infamous conservatorship added to the confusion of being brought up as the children of divorced parents. Even today, Jayden believes his grandfather, Jamie Spears, only had good intentions for his daughter.

Speaker 6: First, I mean, everyone, this must be income for the conservatorship. Right. But I think at first he was just trying to be like any father, like pursue her daughter’s dream of like being a superstar and working him and going and all these concerts to perform. But I think some people are just like seizing to realize how much he cares about her.

Speaker 5: You know, it just it goes against, you know, just feeling like, hey, that’s a family issue. Godspeed. Like, I hope you all work it out, but I really don’t feel like I should know a lot of these things. And that’s something that stuck with me not just now, but, you know, always went back to even when the whole Chris Crocker leave Britney alone thing was happening was I felt at the time that like some of her fans were realizing, like, this is too much, but it wasn’t that they wanted her to be fully left alone. Like, you know, as we mentioned, she had the extensions in her hair. She shaved her head. It just felt like a lot of them wanted her to get back to performing.

Speaker 5: And it was like, well, it seems to me like her cry for help might be actually even bigger than that. It’s just really complicated. And I just feel like if we’re going to act like we’re learning these lessons about the way that she was treated during the aughts and by people like Perez Hilton then I just want us to keep asking ourselves if we’re perpetuating that or not being as thoughtful of those things as we could be when we do see what’s going on with her. Now.

Speaker 2: Leave Britney alone. Just come on. We can all do our part.

Speaker 2: And maybe, maybe one last thought I have about it all about how about why it’s hard to do that is that when celebrities are also showing us a more vulnerable kind of human side, or they’re showing a little bit of their tragedy and their breakdown, their truth, I think that there certainly are people out there who develop a sense of like identification with this celebrity, like whatever they’re going through in their own life. They’re like, look, like Britney Spears struggles just like me. Or Britney Spears has like a difficult relationship with her sons, just like me or, you know, her dad is an asshole, just like mine or.

Speaker 2: Right. It’s like, whatever it is, you could take any facet of her life and kind of, you know, feel a connection or feel like maybe slightly relieved that you’re not alone. And I think that that also makes I just imagine that that also makes things hard. But like we do kind of need, I think, a public face of how we get through tough times. Like we do want that level of honesty, I think from our celebrities like and to see that reflected because it’s what’s human, it’s my right, it’s what’s honest. This just doesn’t quite feel like on her terms. It doesn’t quite feel like in her control.

Speaker 2: Exactly. It just, you know, it’s sort of leaking and bleeding out and it feels like a back and forth and like a feud. You know, I didn’t want to leave without sort of saying, like, in some ways I do get it. I do get why Britney Spears could be a really important public female figure to say, you know, I went through all of the stuff and and I’m okay. And, you know, here’s how you do it. I don’t quite think we’re there yet. Right. We’re still kind of in the middle of it, it seems like, and it seems unclear how it’s going to resolve or how it’s going to play out.

Speaker 2: But, you know, I really do hope that it that it’s for the best, that like there’s some sort of big takeaway where we’re like, oh, wow, maybe we finally learned the lessons and and Britney gets the help that she needs and she’s able to kind of talk in a more coherent, you know, put together way about what she went through and make sure that nobody goes through something like this again.

Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly. I mean, like, you know, I just we immediately saw people saying, like, where’s the new music? When is this going to happen? When is that going to happen? And I think if she ever gets to the point where she wants to do those things again. Fantastic. But she might not. And I just think that we should we have to be okay with that. We have to give her the grace that we say we want to give when we’re looking at these larger issues. I think we have to just ask ourselves if we’re applying it there.

Speaker 5: And yeah, it’s like I do follow her. I don’t engage with like every post I like to, you know, personally, in part because my job is related to covering popular culture. I keep an eye on it, but I also really, you know, just try to not have any judgment. And I do feel like, yeah, there are times where what she’s putting out definitely feels like, oh, I’m I’m learning from this. This is a good example. And, you know, ultimately it’s like if she’s going to put it out there, she’s going to put it out there. There is also still something, I think, deeply infantilizing about being like, well, I, you know, shouldn’t look at this because she, you know, doesn’t know what she’s doing. I think for me, it’s less about that and more just felt like. Yes. Like having grace for those things.

Speaker 2: Before we head out, we want to give you some recommendations. Daisy, what are you loving right now?

Speaker 5: Okay. I do feel a little silly about this, but I’m also going to own it. So I very much enjoyed the Netflix show Love Is Blind and they very recently put out Love Is Blind After the Altar. So that’s essentially us revisiting the people that were on the show last year and, you know, kind of seeing what has happened to them since the people who actually got married and how that played out, the people who did not get married and how that played out and.

Speaker 5: I love updates like this. I just find it interesting, especially just hearing people talk about, you know, what it has been like because it’s also been like their year of fame, right? Like their year of actually being a known entity and, you know, their relationship or lack of a relationship being the thing that everyone knows about them. So it was a very fun watch to get all of those people together. It was also funny because again, as someone who follows popular culture both for joy and for work, I already knew what happened with some of these couples and then like what was actually happening in the episodes both made sense and in some cases did not make sense to what I actually knew. So it was just kind of a fun and funny watch. I appreciated seeing them still hanging out. Love is Blind After the Altar is available on Netflix now.

Speaker 2: And I think let’s see, I’m also going to recommend a TV show that I’m really enjoying. So I’m watching right now, House of the Dragon that follows the Targaryen family. I think it’s like almost 200 years before Dangerous Becomes Queen or is, you know, around on the scene blowing stuff up. I haven’t read anything about what the critics think of this show. It’s definitely different than the previous kind of Game of Thrones. It kind of it lacks in some ways, I think, a little bit of the character development and just these exquisite personalities that were crafted.

Speaker 2: But why I’m loving it is that I think at its core it’s a really good show that’s about feminism and that’s, you know, there are two female characters, formerly friends, and they now have a new kind of social arrangement. I don’t want to give it away, but you know, who are trying to figure out about, you know, power and respect and, you know, who can be queen and namesakes and all of that really good stuff.

Speaker 2: And I just think, yeah, it’s interesting and I’m, I’m kind of enjoying watching this. It’s a little soapy, maybe like a little kind of drama. It’s sexy. There’s, you know, what you would expect from the sort of Targaryen family, if you know what I mean? And so there’s just there’s some stuff. And so that’s my recommendation right now. I think it’s it’s layered and kind of nuanced, and I’m enjoying it.

Speaker 1: That’s it.

Speaker 2: That’s our show this week. The Waves is produced by Shayna Roth.

Speaker 5: Shannon Palus is our editorial director. Alicia Montgomery as vice president of Audio, I Daisy Rosario am our senior supervising producer of audio.

Speaker 2: We love to hear from you. Email us at the waves at slate.com.

Speaker 5: And the Waves will be back next week. Different hosts, different topic, same time and place.

Speaker 2: Thank you so much for being a Slate Plus member. And since you’re a member, you get this weekly segment. Is this feminist? Every week we debate whether something is feminist. And this week, we’re talking about this sort of viral song music video that I saw on Twitter just last week called Baby Daddy Free.

Speaker 3: May not be the ethnic Baby Daddy Free that me ain’t got to make a baby coming out of me. So I’m a beat out party. I am on my way to the clinic. I forgot the plan B. Let’s go. I got murder on my mind. Let’s go. I got murder on my.

Speaker 2: Yes. It’s a song about basically a woman giving you all the reasons why she is going to have an abortion. So a very on topic, very of the moment, top of mind right now. And I just know this. It’s just when I saw it, I was like I sent it to a friend who immediately replied and said, it’s a bop. And I was like, it is like it’s so catchy that, you know, it’s just like the lyric, you know, you’re just bouncing along and she’s making some points. Some points are made, but there’s a lot happening, right?

Speaker 2: So is this feminist and I don’t know, do you want to kind of kick us off with with your take? What do you think?

Speaker 5: Yeah. I mean, I think that I, I think it is feminist. I say that from the point of view of somebody who, like, genuinely doesn’t really believe in respectability politics on any level. You know, I think the big thing about this is that it feels like it’s, you know, saying the things that people wouldn’t want to say about abortion or making it feel fickle in some way. And I really do think that we need to leave space for people that have different, you know, experiences of these things. And there’s a part that I do love where, you know, she mentions like, this man’s not going to trap me with a baby. And that for me is also a big part of why it’s feminist is because, you know, actually, like the data bears out that like men trap women far more like abusive men that trap women in relationships by getting them pregnant, by like poking a hole in the condom, by things like that.

Speaker 5: And so, yeah, maybe this is a, you know, for some people they’d be like, well, that’s not how you should talk about it though. But, you know, I really think like, I don’t really believe that there’s a way to talk about things. I think it depends on who your audience is. And, you know, like, yeah, you’ve got to be mindful of things like that, but ultimately. Like, I do feel like this person is speaking their truth. It’s just not like a quote unquote, respectable version of the truth for some people.

Speaker 2: Hmm. Respectability politics is so key. Right. Like, so you can’t I think we can’t, like, take away from the fact that this is a black woman rapping the song, that it’s rap, right? That there’s another black woman twerking on top of a car. It just kind of like it’s a vibe, like they’re having a great time while she’s telling us why she’s going to have an abortion.

Speaker 2: And it’s sexy and it’s kind of raunchy and, you know, it kind of stood out like I was looking at the Twitter feed and seeing all the criticism and just, you know, people are so deeply uncomfortable. And I just keep thinking, you know what? How dare you be uncomfortable about someone telling us their very real truth about why they need to terminate a pregnancy? Yeah. Meanwhile, terminating a pregnancy, an abortion and our ability to do it right is, like, central to the political discourse. It’s like a thing that just is being lobbied around with like no respect, no consideration for the actual women and people who have to go through this.

Speaker 2: Right. It’s it’s a it’s I don’t know, there’s just something kind of grotesque to me about the discourse right now, where a week ago, two weeks ago, while I was still editing the jury section and all of these stories coming out about women who are going into the E.R., actively miscarrying and being forced to, like, risk dying of sepsis before they could be helped. Right. Like that’s a grim and grotesque reality that has been created by the decision that the Supreme Court made. And so if we’re comfortable with that, which, you know, many of us are clearly not, but if they are comfortable with that, if that is totally fine and passable and whatever, just a consequence of this decision.

Speaker 2: Right, then it should be completely acceptable for a woman to be twerking and rapping and telling us why she’s going to terminate her pregnancy. Right. Like these two things go hand in hand. And I think just the level of discomfort that we that like the Internet and people kind of see or heap onto women and black women and young black women in particular when they, like take back some amount of autonomy or control over their lives.

Speaker 2: Right. When they say, I’m not going to follow your rules and they’re bold about it and they’re brash about it, and they’re they’re not ashamed and, you know, is so hypocritical. Like, it’s just so deeply unfair. And so I think for me, I’m like, yeah, like, you know, you already mentioned it, but just like, she’s not going to be trapped, she’s not going to be cuffed, she’s not going to lose out on opportunity. And so she can’t have this baby. I think that that’s in my mind, I’m like completely reasonable, right?

Speaker 2: All of the studies actually that I did a segment, I think it was a Waves segment, right. With Emily Peck about abortion and and economics. And so all of the data that we have really does bear out what she’s saying, that like women and black women in particular were able to make huge gains both in level of education and in economically by having control over their reproductive, you know, capability. And so I’m just I’m all for it in that way.

Speaker 2: There are some things there are some things that I have questions about. I’m wondering if there’s anything that stands out to you that you’re like, well.

Speaker 5: Maybe the larger kind of gut reaction for me, not just not liking respectability politics, but in general, kind of with what you’re saying, is it is that this is such a hot button political issue for us in this country and it is in some other countries as well. I think sometimes we forget like let’s say like that, like it’s not a big deal in every single country. You know, like that’s part of what is wild about abortion as a topic in America or in a place like Ireland where, you know, the Catholic Church had undue influence and things like that. It’s like ultimately it’s a hot button political issue here. That’s not true for it being everywhere.

Speaker 5: And so much of the reaction to it, if you’re like, well, this is not the way that we should talk about this or whatever is coming from the fact that it’s about the politics of it. Right? Like it’s like, well, don’t play into the hands of the people who act like people who get abortions want to be frivolous or things like that. And I feel like in general, that’s a very it’s a very defensive position. I don’t know that you can ever truly win with like a defensive position like that. That’s, you know, kind of my take on it overall.

Speaker 5: But, you know, it really comes so much more out of like, hey, this thing is really. Like controversial and. And you shouldn’t talk about it like this because of that. Right. And and the impact that they think it might have on that. But ultimately, then you’re asking so many people to, you know, silence the reality of how they feel. I have an acquaintance who I know, like, you know, she had an abortion. And she talks about how getting that abortion helped her get out of an abusive relationship. Right. And show post like every year of like it’s the anniversary of my abortion because for her, like, that really saved her from being in that situation.

Speaker 5: Right. And again, it’s the kind of thing where, like, I see people not liking it. I see people being like, well, that’s not the way you should. And it’s like, well, okay, cool. But like, what you’re worried about in your head really is not as much. What this person is doing is what you think that impact is going to be on this larger political issue. But why don’t you actually put your energy on the people that are, you know, impeding people’s rights and actually, you know, causing situations where women are dying or having to be consulted or or having to consult multiple doctors and the law in their state.

Speaker 5: Now, before they’re allowed to do something, you know, that should be personal to them, you know, so it it is to me like really just putting the energy in the wrong place. Like I get the, you know, somebody as an individual might feel like, well, this doesn’t help, but it’s like, okay, but once again, are we going to spend our time talking more about the stuff that you think doesn’t help or look at the reality of what we’re up against when it comes to this issue and address those things?

Speaker 5: I think it’s easier for a lot of people to be like, that doesn’t help than to feel helpless in the face of the larger issue. And ultimately, I’d rather see people put their energy towards, you know, actually getting these laws changed and making investments in the infrastructure that women need that that women and people who can’t get pregnant need for these issues and not so much going, oh, well, you’re not helping by not seeing things in the way that I think you should be saying.

Speaker 2: You know, it’s the equivalent of like telling policing and talking point policing and. Right. It’s like you’re we don’t want to constrain the conversation around abortion and around reproductive autonomy to only fit the discourse that the conservative right wants to have. Right. That in which, like we might have to make every abortion seem like it was, oh, such a difficult decision to make. And you know that women feel regret and grief and like that’s we know that that’s not the reality that many people might get pregnant, don’t want to be pregnant, and then realize that their future, their future is just as important. And so they can make a choice from a place of being liberated and empowered and, you know, and that that that in my mind, nothing about that seems frivolous to me.

Speaker 2: Right. That’s very, very serious for people with uteruses. That’s extraordinarily serious. The world is not set up. The America is not set up in any way to really foster and support people who have kids if they can’t afford them, if they’re not ready. I mean, there’s just nothing in place. And so I think we really have to take that very seriously, right. That like a woman’s life, a person’s life is just as is is inherently important. And they get to make decisions that are really just what are best for them. And but the other side. Right.

Speaker 2: Speaking to the question of conservative talking points and you’re not saying things exactly the right way or you’re making it worse, there is a line in this song that absolutely makes me cringe and and go, Oh, my God, I really wish you didn’t say it like that. But it starts out and she’s saying, I’ve got murder on my mind. Right? And I’m just like, right, the man I’m actually right. Like the the discourse around abortion being murder is exactly what the conservative and like the the Christian right wants us to believe.

Speaker 2: Right. That they’re they’re pushing this notion of fetal personhood that every, you know, at conception it’s a person with, you know, rights. And so it does make it does put have put the choice to terminate in this like shaky legal territory that I think some of the most conservatives had it their way they could prosecute women and an already irate were already prosecuting women for when women of color Latino women you know from everywhere when things happen when things go wrong with their pregnancies. But just this this use of the word murder, like I’m just like, please cease and desist immediately. Like, cut that out, like we’re with you, and we just need you to stop on that one point. And, I don’t know, maybe there’s another.

Speaker 5: Well, I mean, watching it, I was just kind of like, that’s a hip hop reference. Like, you know, it’s like, I get.

Speaker 2: It, actually.

Speaker 5: And it’s like and I get your reaction, right? Like, I’m not judging your reaction either, but I. It is one of those things, you know, where and this is where a cultural competency comes into play is like that hip hop reference in its own way. Right. And so it’s like it’s just, you know, and that’s what I think is also important about like let’s be realistic about kind of like where her influences are coming from and things like that. But like, I get the discomfort. I mean, I absolutely get the discomfort and I don’t think I am even saying that people shouldn’t have the discomfort. I think that discomfort is legit. I think people’s.

Speaker 2: Is like, yeah.

Speaker 5: I think like any of the actual feelings that we have like internally are legitimate. But then we have to ask ourselves like where do they come from and like, is this useful? And all of those things that we just as humans don’t ask ourselves enough. And yeah, I think it’s an understandable gut reaction, but I’m sure because I also follow plenty of conservative media as well, I’m sure that’s being highlighted in the past in the worst possible light. But you know, again, like that’s, you know, the culture she comes from.

Speaker 2: Well, you know, I hearing you say it, I’m thinking now I’m like, you know, if if the conservative right, if they’re going to say that, you know, we’re all murderers, every woman who’s had an abortion is a murderer, then like in some ways, reclaiming that and being like, okay, then I’m a murder is I don’t know, is it like a bold kind of liberatory stance to take, like if someone is going to say this about you regardless anyway.

Speaker 2: Right. And then being like, okay, well, if that’s the box you want to put me into, like kind of standing firmly and proudly in that box while also, you know, like you said, this is this, this it’s like such a classic kind of like hip hop ad lib throwaway line, right? That it’s like not to be taken super, deeply or seriously as her politics. But I’m just like, okay, maybe that’s where we’re headed. And so, you know, I’m like as a as a I’m just like, hey, like, if that’s what it is, then okay, right. And we kind of moved from there. So now I’m having like a deeper, deeper reaction or a takeaway. But yeah, my first I was like, it’s so cringe, right? I’m like, Oh, no, right. Oh, no.

Speaker 5: Oh, I mean, I get it. I mean, I have that reaction to so many things. I just never tweet them.

Speaker 2: Right. Stay off social media. But it sounds like we’re in agreement. So Baby Daddy Free, which is just on Spotify, as brief by I’m going to get I’m so sorry to this woman because I’m like, I don’t know how your name is pronounced, but I think it’s DFW Nique or Nick Baby Daddy Free is is the feminist anthem about abortion. We maybe we didn’t know we needed, but here it is. Is there something you’re dying to know if it’s feminist or not? We’d love to hear from you. Email us at the waves at Slate.com.