Zak Rosen: This episode contains explicit language. Before we get started, the mom and dad crew want to let you know how heartbroken we all are after yet another senseless, tragic shooting. We recorded today’s episode before the shooting in Texas. That’s why you won’t hear us talk about it today. However, we will sadly return to this topic soon. In the meantime, if you want to learn more about how you can take action against gun violence, visit Everytown. Georgie. Welcome to Mom and Dad are Fighting Slate’s parenting podcast for Thursday, May 26. But so many questions. Additions. I’m Zak Rosen. I make a podcast called The Best Advice Show and I live in Detroit with my family. My daughter Noah is four and my son Amy is one.
Elizabeth Newcamp: I’m Elizabeth Newcamp. I write the homeschool and family travel blog Dutch that schools I’m the mom to three littles. Henry who’s ten, Oliver who’s eight and Teddy who’s five. And we live in Colorado Springs, Colorado. But I am coming to you from Grand Teton National Park in Wyoming.
Speaker 3: Scott Hershovitz, and the author of Nasty, Brutish and Short Adventures in Philosophy with My Kids. I teach law and philosophy in Michigan. I’ve got two boys. Rex, who’s 12? Hank, who’s nine. And we live in Ann Arbor.
Zak Rosen: So great to have another Michigander on the show today.
Speaker 3: Thrilled to be here.
Zak Rosen: We got the case of a curious kid today and she’s just trying to figure out the world. But the questions are getting big. Our letter writer wants to know how he can nurture his daughter’s curiosity while still keeping her grounded. Not grounded, like in trouble, but, you know, not floating away into space with all her thoughts. Then on Slate Plus, some of the wisest and funniest things come out of the mouths of kids. We’re going to talk about some hilarious things that our kids have said over the years. Here’s a sneak peek of what you’ll hear if you have Slate Plus.
Elizabeth Newcamp: So when he came home, my mom said, you know, like, hey, why did you choose to be an angel? And he said, well, first of all, I have angel hair because he has this white hair. Second of all, I look pretty good in white. And number three, I don’t really like sheep.
Zak Rosen: If you want a weekly bonus segment from us and your other Slate favorites, consider signing up for the slate. Plus, you’ll also get to listen ad free and get unlimited access to the Slate website. To sign up now, go to Slate.com slash mom and dad. Plus, again, that Slate.com slash mom and dad plus.
Zak Rosen: All right. We’re going to take a quick break. And when we come back, we’ll dive into our triumphs and fails of the week.
Elizabeth Newcamp: If you’re new to our show, welcome. Whether you’re a parent, educator or just interested in this wild journey. We’re so glad to have you here. And mom and daughter fighting. We share our parenting triumphs and fails, offer some advice and share recommendations of things we love. We’re here twice a week on Monday and Thursday, so subscribe to Never Miss an episode.
Zak Rosen: We’re back and moving on to some parenting stories from our week. Scott, do you have a triumph or fail to share with us this week?
Speaker 3: I do. I’ve got a triumph wrapped up in a fails or start with the fail. We took our kids to London recently to do promotion for the book. We wanted it to feel like something had happened in their lives when the book comes out. And actually not much really goes on the day a book comes out, just like Amazon starts delivering it. So we took them to London and we brought them home. And the day after we got home, our oldest Rex tested positive for COVID. So after two and a half years of keeping him healthy, we we had that fail. But then wrapped up in that there was a triumph. He’s been in his room isolating, alone, because the three of us are still miraculously testing negative. And so he’s entertaining himself with his devices. And I thought that was mostly playing video games.
Speaker 3: But then on Sunday, he sent me a note with a link to a Google doc where he’d assigned himself an essay and and done some research. And he had written, he had watched some videos about Aristotle and, and their reviews about the good life. And he wrote me a one page essay about what he thinks a good life is. And I got to say, it was pretty good. And he told me he tried to do it in my style, so I took it as just a huge compliment. I mean, he did say, is this really your job? I can’t believe how bored I am after an hour. So maybe it’s like a fail wrapped up in a triumph wrapped up in a fail. But if it was really sweet and impressive that that’s how he entertained himself.
Elizabeth Newcamp: I love this. This is like, don’t they say, like boredom, right? Like breathes creativity. I mean, one of the things I’m always preaching to my kids is that boredom is good for them. Like, it’s amazing what you will find in your boredom. So here I think this is a win. This is what they have found.
Speaker 3: Yeah, totally. That was my mother’s view, too, actually is I complained that I was bored at school and she’d say, Look, the world wasn’t made for you. You know, find a way to entertain yourself. And yeah, just surprising that this is the way you did it, but super cool.
Zak Rosen: If you’re comfortable sharing, can you tell us the highlight of what the good life was to him?
Speaker 3: So, you know, the content was kind of interesting after sort of giving like a thumbnail summary of Aristotle and Conte, he kind of expressed skepticism that there’s a right answer to this question and thought maybe we each get to decide for ourselves, which I think is true within a range. But I also think there are some answers that are out of bounds. So we had some conversations about that afterwards.
Zak Rosen: He is truly a philosopher, son. How about you, Elizabeth? What’s going on on your end?
Elizabeth Newcamp: So we left on this trip on Saturday and we record today as a Tuesday. This would have been Henry’s last day of school today. But instead we had his last day on Friday because we pulled him out early to take this trip. As we do so, Friday was kind of crazy. I volunteer at school on Fridays. We had this big volunteer luncheon and pizza Friday and when we get into the car, Henry has this giant antler with him and he goes to school in the woods. And so this is very kind of normal. And I’m like, Hey, are you supposed to take this antler?
Elizabeth Newcamp: He’s like, Yes, I’m definitely allowed to take this antler. I’m like, okay, so we get to the car, we go then to a friend’s house who has offered to feed us since we are leaving on the trip on Saturday. So we go to the friend’s house. I put my phone down, don’t think anything about it. And when we get back into the car and I pick up my phone, there is a voice memo from a father at school who says, hey, when they were on this perimeter hike where they hike the four miles that surround the school, my daughter and your son found this antler. Henry made some kind of arrangement to pay $40 to get to keep the antler. And so his daughter showed up at home with $40 and my child showed up with the yellow snow. Of course, I have a conversation with Henry. Hey, is this what happened? Yes, we found it together. I offered to pay her. Okay. How did you come up with this amount? You know. Did you talk to the teacher?
Elizabeth Newcamp: No, we didn’t talk to any teachers. We Googled the going value of antlers. We decided that this was a pretty good like. Typically, you would buy them online. Gosh knows where for like 80 $100 since we each found it. I was paying my staff. It was like, okay, we don’t take money to school and purchase things. The antler probably belongs to school in the woods. He’s like, totally cool, right?
Elizabeth Newcamp: So I actually because it’s the dad, I texted the dad back and then Jeff kind of said that he would make the phone call and handle this. I was handling last minute packing. There was also a snowstorm hitting Colorado Springs. We got about 15 inches between Friday and Saturday. And so we said to this other father, hey, we’re leaving. We will kind of deal with this when we get back. Because he was anxious to return the money. We also wanted to make sure that the antler got back to school in the woods. So we were like, Listen, can you just send the money on with your daughter? Have her give it to one of Henry’s two good friends whose moms volunteer there with me all the time. We will do the same with the Antler. Everything will get back there.
Elizabeth Newcamp: I don’t know if this dad didn’t think that we were going to return the letter or what was going to happen. But he was like, Well, we want to come pick up the antler and make sure it gets scored in the woods tomorrow. So we’re like, Okay, I can put it on my porch and in this snowstorm, you can come get the antler if it is that big deal. So I put a box out on the porch. This man came, got the antler, $40, was put under our patio. And I feel like I handled some kind of, like, terrible wildlife, like, poaching. It should make you look at just the whole thing.
Elizabeth Newcamp: You know, I was just thinking like, gosh, what a weird way to end our time there. I, of course, talked to the principal on the phone. He was like, Oh, no, stuff like this happens all the time. Like, okay, I definitely think Henry understands now we shouldn’t be buying things from people at school. We definitely shouldn’t be buying parts of animals like that was part of our conversation and of course it’s part of the learning going on, but just the like untangling of it. And you know, when I got the initial voicemail, I just knew like this is going to be such a bigger problem than just like returning the antler and getting money back. Do you know what I mean? Like, I just could tell it was going to be this whole thing because it always is. But in the end, everything’s fine. But it just felt like, oh, another. Another weird thing that I have to deal with parenting that I was not prepared for.
Speaker 3: The law professor in me just loves what they did though, right? Like they found this thing in the world which they took to be on owned. They claimed it. They took themselves to have an equal and undivided interest. And then they figured out a solution to that problem. They appraised the value of the item and they reached an agreement about who was going to buy the other one out. It’s like that’s a triumph.
Elizabeth Newcamp: Exactly. And honestly, like when we approached it, you know, with many things in parenting, it’s like not as cut and dry, right? Because I was like, I love that you didn’t steal it, right? You could have taken it. You know, they were both like, Oh, it was off of school property, which, you know, technically it wasn’t. And you’re absolutely right. They solved a much larger problem. Unfortunately, they were missing this small ethical piece. But yes, I mean, I think many lessons were learned. I should look at it, though. You’re right. Like he came to a problem and really solved it and in a capitalist society really did the right thing. We were both like, you kind of got a great deal, right? Like $40 for an alum. That’s pretty good. Should we be selling them? I don’t know.
Zak Rosen: But it’s place based for school at its best.
Elizabeth Newcamp: Yeah, with money. I mean, so really, you know, all of this stems back to the day that Henry took the dog walking job like this. All stems back to the fact that he makes way too much money for a ten year old. And that’s something we’re constantly now trying to control. Like it was good that he took this job. It’s lots of responsibility, but he gets paid really well. And so he now has the ability to buy and spend money.
Speaker 3: He’s taking his entire money to schools is interesting because you never know when you’re going to when you’re going to need it.
Elizabeth Newcamp: I know. I know. Jeff and I are like, I guess now we need to open like a bank in the house and you need to deposit your cash. No, you can, like, get your cash out of the bank when we say it’s okay. I don’t know. Listeners, if you have any ideas of what to do with the ten year old who’s making too much money because he got a job and he’s really good at it. So more people keep hiring him. Let me know.
Elizabeth Newcamp: Zach, how’s your week going?
Zak Rosen: You know, my week is going really well. I feel rejuvenated because I spent this past weekend on an annual friend trip with this group of guy friends who I’ve been like best friends with since kindergarten. Literally, we like rent a house in Michigan somewhere every year, sometimes twice a year. And so we had that weekend and going into it I was just feeling so burnt out. I was losing my patience and just like, got to get the fuck out of here. I can’t be a dad right now. And the weekend did exactly what I was hoping. It would give me a chance to bond with my buddies and relax and just hang out. But then also I’m just noticing, having come back from it, my patience is back. And I’m just thinking about people who just don’t have the opportunity to leave their kids at all.
Zak Rosen: I just have so much respect for you because man, a break is, to me foundational and essential to be a person who shows up as a parent most of the time. So if there’s any way you can get a break, I highly recommend it because I don’t know what I would do without it. So thanks to my wife for watching the kids this weekend and shout out to all my to all my fellows who I was on the trip with, it was really nice.
Elizabeth Newcamp: That sounds amazing. I always pledge that I’m going to do more of that and I never do putting my own oxygen mask on first because that’s really what you did, was give yourself some much needed space.
Zak Rosen: Yeah, yeah. My wife and I trade weekends off and like she got one with her friends a month or two ago and then. Yeah, couldn’t recommend it more. Let’s take another quick break. And when we come back, we’ll get into today’s listener question.
Zak Rosen: Okay. Let’s hear today’s listener question being read, as always, by the sensational Sasha Leonhard.
Elizabeth Newcamp: Dear mom and dad are fighting. I’m the father of a very precocious, sometimes anxious eight year old daughter. You might be able to relate to this with her. The questions don’t end. Where was I before I was born? Can dance, feel pain? Why do I have to go to school? You and Mom get to sleep together. Why do I have to sleep alone? Who is God? Is Putin going to hell? I’m usually enchanted by her questions and came to do my best to answer them. But I sometimes feel like she can kind of spin into a bit of a loop when she gets obsessive and trying to get to the bottom of things. Beyond therapy, what can we as her parents do to nurture her wonder while also helping maintain some kind of feeling of mental peace? Yours? Head scratching, Dad.
Zak Rosen: Scott, as the philosopher here. I imagine you have some some really helpful things to say. What do you how does this question strike you?
Speaker 3: So when I heard it the first time, I found myself sort of confused as to who was feeling overwhelmed as a dad that’s feeling overwhelmed or is a daughter that’s feeling overwhelmed. And I kind of get the impression that maybe it’s a little bit of both. So let me try and break it down into like thoughts for dad and then thoughts for daughter for dad. I want to say something I think he’s already on to, which is this is a really wonderful thing about your daughter. And actually, lots of kids are like this. They’re filled with big questions about the world. And your daughter’s right in the sweet spot of the age where they’re interested in deep questions like, where was I before I was born? Or Who is God? And that’s not going to last forever. And so it’s really worth enjoying while you can. And I think Dad knows that. But I just want to, you know, highlight again how super cool this phase of childhood is.
Speaker 3: The second thing I’ll say for Dad, if he’s feeling overwhelmed by just the constant stream of questions, is you can try and redirect them into the times when they’re most fruitful to engage, or you have the most space or attention or energy for engaging them. So in our house, that’s often bedtime. We read a story together every night, but I sometimes offer my younger son, Hank, a choice between We can have a story or we can have what he calls a man to man chat, and then he gets to pick the topic of the chat. And sometimes they’re big questions like this, and I love to have those conversations at that time because the house is quiet and there aren’t other distractions. And strategically like Hank is trying to extend his bedtime. So he wants to have these conversations and it’s often really fun.
Speaker 3: The last thing I want to say to Dad is just pick up on one word in the question. He says, I’m game to do my best to answer them, and I want to encourage Dad to think of his role differently. All right. So sometimes you ask questions and it’s your job to answer them. But sometimes I think with these deeper questions, it’s not your job to answer them. It’s your job just to engage in a kind of collaborative conversation and explore the world with your kid.
Speaker 3: So Janna More Alone, runs the philosophy, learning and teaching organization out of Washington State. She goes into schools and she talks to kids about philosophy, and she says that she doesn’t teach them philosophy. She does philosophy with them. And I want to encourage Dad to see his role is not I have to answer this, but I can say, what do you think? And then, you know, think of it as like an exploration together. And then like it seems like maybe daughter is feeling overwhelmed too. And I think in this role, I think as dad, I’d want to just communicate that, you know, we don’t really know the answer to a lot of these questions and the uncertainty is okay. And to tell her that people have been thinking of these questions for thousands of years and struggling to answer them, we’re not going to find the answer tonight, but we can keep coming back to these issues and you can keep coming back to these issues. I might even tell her there’s a job, right? You know, you can be a philosopher someday and you can worry about these questions as a profession, and maybe that’s something that’ll interest her.
Speaker 3: And then the last thing that I thought might help is, is to give her books that address some of these questions to help her explore with other people. So there’s a series of books called The Really, Really Big Questions, and there’s like a new actually a new version by a philosopher named Steven Law is going to come out in July. And it’s right for this age group. And some of that some of the questions that his daughter is interested in are addressed in that book with pictures. And it’s in an age appropriate way. So I might try and offload some of the responsibility for having answers by giving her things to read.
Zak Rosen: I’m thinking about head scratching, dad describing his daughter as like, you know, her wheels can spin out sometimes. You two have had eight year olds or have eight year olds or older. What have you found to be an effective way to, you know, have the conversations that you’re talking about here about kind of cultivating wonder and uncertainty, but also just like helping them relax a bit, you know, and helping them, you know, kind of find their footing again.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I think that the fact that you need to move on now doesn’t mean that the conversation is ending permanently. It’s something I try to communicate to my kids. So, you know, we can talk about this more tomorrow. We can talk about this weekend or why don’t we write down some ideas that we can investigate later? So I think that’s one strategy. Also, I think, again, this gets back to the dad side. Like, I don’t know how to answer these questions or I try to answer as many of them as I can, I think sometimes. Empowering them, giving them. I want you to write down what you think the answer is. Or you think about it, you know, for a few days and then write down what you think the answer is. I think making it kind of task oriented for them, I think, is a way of channeling the energy.
Elizabeth Newcamp: Fundamentally, if kids know that they’re like saved, loved, cared for that, you can say to them, I know these are big questions and none of this changes kind of any of those things, right? That I love you, that you’re here, that we’re keeping you safe to help them sort of ground them. I know for my big thinker, my eight year old is in this zone very much.
Elizabeth Newcamp: And we’ve actually found a lot of like using yoga, meditation, things like that to just be present, like to talk about like, yes, there are these big thoughts, but also we need to be present here and here are some practices that can help us be present in this world, because there are times in which we very much need to be grounded, and there are times in which it’s okay to kind of explore this kind of do these thought experiments. Right. But there are also times in which we’re not in a good place to do those or we become too lost in those. And so learning like, hey, we need to come back, we use the term heart center because that’s what they use in our yoga practice. But like, hey, we need to return back to kind of heart center and being present here and we can talk about this again.
Zak Rosen: Well, head scratching, dad, help some of these ideas help. We would love to know how it goes. Everyone else, how are you dealing with all the big questions? Email us at mom and dad at Slate.com. That’s also where you can send any other questions you have. And that’s it for our show.
Zak Rosen: We actually won’t have an episode on Monday because it’s a holiday, but join us next Thursday for a conversation with Scott about his wonderful book. And of course, we won’t forget the recommendations, so be sure to tune in while you’re at it. Please subscribe to the show. That way you’ll never miss an episode. This episode of Mom and Dad Are Fighting is produced by Jasmine Ellis and Rosemary Belson for Elizabeth Newcamp and Scott Hershovitz Zak Rosen. Thanks for listening.
Zak Rosen: All right, Slate Plus listeners, let’s keep it going. We just want to talk about all of the absurd, hilarious, ponderous things our kids have said to us that have stuck with us over the years. I know that my mother in law kept a book of like, funny things my kids said, and that’s basically kind of the jumping off point for your new book, Scott In a way. But I wonder when you think about it, like, what are those? The memes that that your kids have created that have just kind of burrowed into your your memory?
Speaker 3: Well, so there’s, there’s one that just relates to the conversation we were just having about head scratching, dad, which is when our older one Rex was, he was still in a crib. So he was probably two ish, let’s say. We had had a little picnic in our backyard and we had had to move because some bees started to like buzz around the blanket. And I think it was his first real encounter with bees. And he was interested in the bees and scared of the bees.
Speaker 3: The entire rest of the day was just nonstop questions about bees, right? All the way through dinner, all the way through bath time, all the way through bedtime. It was bees, bees, bees. And then my wife Julie was putting him in his crib and he was still asking questions about bees. And she said, That’s enough, Rex. We can talk more about the bees tomorrow. And he said, That’s okay. I can talk about the bees after you leave. And then he did for like a half an hour, we stood outside the door listening to him just like deliver a monologue about these bees until he, like, beat himself out and fell asleep. That, I think, was one of my favorite moments of Rex.
Elizabeth Newcamp: I love those moments because it’s like hearing them out. Like as an adult, I’ve had those, you know, where I just have to work it out. And in kids, all of that is like verbal. Like when you are here, Jeff, my husband calls it like, wow, we’re hearing him learn, you know, like we’re hearing him try to get to whatever he needs to get to to like be at peace to be done with this topic. And we can’t help him get there any faster, though. Oh, that’s funny.
Zak Rosen: There’s something come to mind for you, Elizabeth.
Elizabeth Newcamp: Yeah. So I have this one year for the nativity play at our church in Atlanta. Oliver was asked. He wanted to be part of it. We spent most Christmases in Atlanta. He was asked, do you want to be, you know, an angel or a shepherd? And he had chose to be an angel. And so when he came home, my mom said, you know, like, hey, why did you choose to be an angel? And he said, well, first of all, I have angel hair because he has this white hair. Second of all, I look pretty good in white. And number three, I don’t really like sheep. And I just like for a a little glimpse into his decision making, you know, like that’s it’s pretty logical for I mean, I think he was five at the time. It was like this. This kid actually like thought about this in a decision that I sort of thought he gave no thought to. It was it was much more thought out.
Zak Rosen: I heard a great joke this week on a podcast. It was Mike Birbiglia, his podcast. His guest was the comedian Alex Edelman. And he said and he told us, great kids joke. So I went and picked Noah up from school the other day and we’re walking home and we see our neighbors who have kids. And I thought, Oh, this is going to be a great time for me to tell this joke. And Noah has not heard the joke before. So first I’ll tell you the joke and then I’ll tell you what she said, which I thought was very funny. So the joke is, what’s a pirate’s favorite letter? And any guesses are you’d think it be R, but it’s the C. He laughs.
Elizabeth Newcamp: The country.
Zak Rosen: Great. So that’s a great joke. No, I hadn’t heard it before. The neighbors laugh. Oh, that’s so funny. And then I’m like, All right, see you later. And then Noah, my four year old, goes, Goodbye. Maddy’s like, She just had, like, a topper, like a perfect kind of pirate goodbye to say to them. I was so proud of her. Like, you’re a clever little, little ass, my Noah. And that’s just a joke that I’ve probably told four times since I heard it, like, a week ago, so please use it.
Elizabeth Newcamp: What else? So we were hiking today. I wrote this one down because we were out hiking this morning and just having a nice time as a family. And I think I commented like, gosh, it’s so nice because we’re so we’re so busy and running around when we’re home and then we’re sort of going down the path and it’s quiet and my little one, Teddy, is up at the front and Jeff is all the way in the back, and Teddy stops and turns around and just yells, Jeff, when can I get on your schedule to go to a baseball game? And I mean, it was so random, but it was also a little bit like it had triggered, you know, like, oh yeah, I want to schedule something with Dad, but just the language sometimes he chooses to use it at five or five and a half as he says that like this is something that would need to be scheduled, you know, with dad. And that now in the middle of the woods is the time to really do that.
Zak Rosen: Did you send him his calendar link? Well.
Elizabeth Newcamp: Yeah. Jeff was like, any time, you know, where do you want to go? You know? And he’s like, well, when our game, you know, Teddy’s like, well, when are. Games like we don’t know, man.
Zak Rosen: Scott Do you have, like, a mechanism by which you save the amusing things your kids say so you can use them in your books?
Speaker 3: So I. For a while that mechanism was just my teaching notes. So the origin of this book is partly that I would be telling stories about my kids when I was teaching just because it was a great way of getting conversations going. So like, if we’re going to talk about the purposes of punishment, I’m just going to tell you something that Rex or Hank did and ask my class how we should respond and then why would we respond that way? What are we up to? And then you can use that as a way of thinking about, Well, okay, what are we doing when we punish adults? And so, you know, a lot of the like the first recording of some of these stories is was in my teaching notes. I wasn’t systematic and I really wish I was because I was constantly calling my parents and telling them the story about like the funny thing my kid had said. But the problem we have in our house is unless it was attached, attached to some issue in philosophy, then then we don’t have a great record of it. We’re just, you know, relying on our memories.
Zak Rosen: Do you have a system, Elizabeth?
Elizabeth Newcamp: My system is my father. He writes down all the stuff in a Google doc. So any story that I have told him about the kids, anything that he has encountered with them, he keeps in what he calls the data file and it has all kinds of weird stuff which he now emails us to, you know, like, Hey, did you know on this date 20 years ago, this is what you were doing or that this thing happened? But it’s really cool because now it includes all the grandkids stuff. Or he’ll say like, Oh, you told me the story about, you know, one of the kids saying this. So, oh, he’s.
Speaker 3: Been doing it for your.
Elizabeth Newcamp: Childhood. Oh, yeah, my childhood, too. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it was in a notebook at some point. And then he he started keeping a spreadsheet. And now that has been put on a Google doc. So yeah, I mean, he sends us stuff like we are in Grand Teton right now and while I’m here, he sent me something saying, when we took you to Grand Teton, you know, this many year, whatever year that was, you met you, we were on the hike to inspiration point and you met your camp counselor, like randomly ran into this woman that had been your camp counselor. It’s like I would never remember that. And he has all the names and everything written down. It’s really.
Zak Rosen: Cool. Is this an app idea?
Elizabeth Newcamp: There’s definitely an app out there for this, right? Well, there’s like there are books. There’s the one line of day books. I did those for a long time with the kids, but then carrying it around, you know, but there’s definitely there’s apps for it, like texts you a question every day and you answer the question and then it prints that into a book. But if our slate people know about an app that records or, you know, prompts you to record or where you can record and it categorizes it and reminds you of it later, tell us. Oh.
Zak Rosen: Yeah, let us know. Mom or dad at Slate.com and just in general sleep. Plus, we’d love to know what funny or profound things your kids have said. Send them in or share them on the Slate Parenting Facebook group and be sure to join us next Thursday for another bonus segment by.