The Magic of Messi
Mary Harris: Jasmine GARSD is a reporter and a podcast host over at NPR. But for the rest of the show, the thing you really need to know about Jasmine is that she loves soccer.
Messi: I don’t know what it is with soccer. I consider myself a very rational scientific person. And when the World Cup rolls around, I just become just this extremely obsessive, like superstitious. I can’t say certain things and I have to where it’s bizarre. I just morph into another person.
Mary Harris: And as she does every World Cup. Jasmine is rooting for Argentina, her home country. When she says she’s superstitious, she means it. She’s got trouble watching the game if it’s too close. And she also has these lucky socks she wears when Argentina’s playing. They’ve got avocados on them. It’s a little unclear how these socks work.
Messi: Like when we played against Mexico, I wore one lucky sock, just one because we were coming off the Saudi game.
Mary Harris: Argentina lost when they played Saudi Arabia early on.
Messi: And I was like, maybe both lucky socks. It’s just like too much power in my in my hand and my feet. So I was like, I’m going to just wear one. And then during halftime, a friend texted to me and it was like, Put the other one on now.
Mary Harris: Argentina won that Mexico game. Then Argentina beat Australia and the Netherlands. Today, Argentina advances to the semifinals against Croatia. Jasmine says while her home team operates as a unit, everyone knows that there is one player whose grace and focus is going to be center stage. Anytime Argentina takes the pitch, that player is Lionel Messi. Messi has said this World Cup will be his last.
Messi: I saw him play. I don’t know what year it was, but I saw him live in a stadium in New Jersey. He was playing against the US and I went, I was on a date, like a first date with someone who took me. And I just I went really crazy because when he turns when Messi turns it on, it’s it’s magic. The thing about Messi is.
Mary Harris: What does it look like when he turns it on?
Messi: He’s very strategic. He creates goals really well. Like he creates opportunities for other teammates, which is really important.
Mary Harris: Like he opens up the field.
Messi: Yeah, he he’s like, he, he he’ll get it and he’ll open up the field and he’ll pass it to the right person, which is every bit as important as being the goal maker. Right. So anyway, I was on this date with this guy and I saw Messi and I was just going crazy. And at one point I’m like screaming and I look over and this guy is just looking at me a little horrified. I’m like, You know, if you can handle me at my soccer worst, you don’t deserve me at my civilian bust.
Mary Harris: Or I love. Messi’s career has been one of the most storied in soccer history, like he’s won the Ballon d’Or, the international award given to the best soccer player of the year more times than any other player. So how many times as he won a World Cup?
Messi: Nine. I mean, his performance with Argentina up until like two years ago was pretty lackluster.
Mary Harris: So Messi right now in Qatar has something to prove.
Messi: Yeah, for sure. I mean, people love him like he’s really won over people’s hearts. It just took a long time.
Mary Harris: Today on the show, how Lionel Messi got to Qatar and why so many fans are rooting for him. I’m Mary Harris. You’re listening to what next? Stick around.
Mary Harris: So let’s start from the beginning. One of the things I learned from listening to your podcast, The Last Cup, is that in Argentina, there’s actually a word for a soccer star like Lionel Messi. PB. Can you describe what a pub is?
Messi: Yeah. Bieber is a boy and it’s like kind of a like a neighborhood kid, you know, like an everyday kid. And the soccer dream has always been known as El Sueno. It’ll be like the kids dream.
Mary Harris: What’s the kid’s dream?
Messi: It’s a dream of. Of becoming a soccer superstar of you know, it’s a dream about social mobility. A lot of times it’s a dream of getting out of poverty. I think it would be like hoop dreams in the U.S., you know?
Mary Harris: Huh. How did Messi embody that dream?
Messi: He was a kid from a working class background. His dad worked at a steel factory. His mom cleaned houses for extra money. And he was extraordinary on the field. Just extraordinary. And the dream is that you’re so extraordinary. You’re going to save your family. You’re going to make it big. You’re going to get everyone out of their station in life. It’s really a dream about social mobility. But most of all, it’s a dream about your country and adoring you and just singing your name and you’re going to become a star.
Mary Harris: The thing about Messy is there are all these moments that are so cinematic, like the neighborhood soccer club coach tells a story about seeing Messy is like a four year old in a dirt field.
Messi: Yeah.
Mary Harris: Can you tell that story?
Messi: Yeah. And the story is messy. Like so many Latin American kids, is, you know, raised in part by his grandmother. And they keep going to watch soccer. He’s like four or five, and they’re watching in the sidelines. And there’s this, like, tiny little neighborhood club around the dog. And I’m lonely.
Messi: And the coach, Salvador Robert ECL, is very stressed out because he’s missing one kid and he can’t start playing this game until he has, you know, that player. So he looks out into the crowd and he sees this tiny little kid and he says to the grandmother, like, Hey, can I can I put your kid in the field? He doesn’t have to do anything. I just need a body. He can just stand there. And so four or five year old Masi goes out into the field and he just stands there like a thing. And the ball, like, goes past him, goes past him. And then at some point, the ball kind of like lands at his feet and something clicks and he takes it and he dribbles past, like the entire field.
Mary Harris: So Missy got really good, really fast.
Messi: Yeah.
Mary Harris: But partially because he had so much potential. He ended up leaving Argentina.
Mary Harris: So talk to me a little bit about how Messi ended up in Barcelona.
Messi: Well, interestingly, in the nineties, like in the mid-nineties, European soccer starts being really, really profitable. And so at some point it clicks for the European teams and for agents. We need to start really importing Latin American and then African talent as well. And they also start focusing on really young kids. So a lot of coaches I spoke to say, you know, around this time we started noticing people like guys in the bleachers that weren’t parents. There were scouts, huh? You know, they were they were approaching like ten, 11, 12 year olds with the masses. You know, there starts to be a lot of back and forth. You know, Barsa is very impressed with this kid, but they’re not sure. I mean, this is like a big moment of tension versus just not sure about that.
Messi: See, first of all, he was a phenom in soccer, but he also had a a pretty serious medical condition. Nancy wasn’t growing. He had a hormone deficiency. And it was it’s treatable, but it’s very expensive. And this kid not only required being, like taken to Spain from Argentina with his dad, he required a hormonal treatment. It was like a really big investment.
Mary Harris: So what clinched it for them? What changed their mind?
Messi: I mean, one of the coaches I spoke to said when you saw him play, you realized this kid is going to change everything.
Mary Harris: The timing of the Barsa offer was good for the Messi family. A contract with the team wouldn’t just help pay for their son’s treatments. It would also help them escape political instability within Argentina.
Messi: Around 2000 2001. Argentina is hitting like a desperate economic crisis. I mean, it was like. 20% unemployment at some point. 23% unemployment. And so they realize things are getting really bad here. And they do make a decision to go to Spain, where they have this this offer from a Spanish club.
Mary Harris: Yeah. And leaving Argentina is a decision a lot of people made. Yeah. It’s just that Messi had this opportunity.
Messi: Yeah. They you know, I mean, in some ways, I, I really think that my story is also the story of. Argentina’s economic collapse and of Latin America’s economic woes. I mean, they have this opportunity, but it’s also. It’s all it’s a leap, you know, You’re resting the future of your family on a 12 year old.
Mary Harris: So Muzzy leaves Argentina, goes to Spain. What did his career look like at Barca once he got there?
Messi: Oh, he was he was brilliant. I mean, we talk a lot about the immigrant narrative in this podcast. I mean, Massey understood by age 12 or 13 that he could not fail because the entire family kind of depended on him. So he would train all the time. All he did was train. And according to people who know him and he would go home and lock himself in his room and cry by himself, then he would go train.
Mary Harris: Why was he crying? Was he crying because he missed home? Was he crying?
Messi: He missed home. He missed his friends. He missed his family. And his life had just become training. It was very difficult for him.
Mary Harris: But all that training paid off.
Mary Harris: It didn’t take long for commentators to start comparing Messi to a different Argentine soccer legend, Diego Maradona.
Messi: He starts of rising, meteoric.
Speaker 3: And a massively teenage wonderkid that sees the man. He’s been awarded the number 30 shirt for Barcelona. One of his biggest supporters is Maradona.
Messi: I mean, in his first game, like his debut with var saw, you see him like go out into the field in a in a uniform that’s a little bit too big for him. He’s playing Porto FC, a Portuguese team, and he doesn’t score a goal. But everyone like the commentator, as you can hear them in Portuguese saying he’s he’s like a small Maradona. He’s amazing.
Speaker 4: Go back to like go up to the. I never know what. Oh, ladies and gentlemen. Again. Calm down.
Messi: I mean, people just immediately see Barsa has discovered a diamond in the rough. They invested in him and he is going to make them legendary.
Speaker 3: I’m kind of just gonna miss you. I’m gonna miss you.
Speaker 4: Obviously. Below the low. Go, go, go, go, go, go, go.
Mary Harris: So Messi basically gets trained up in the Spanish way of playing soccer, right? Yeah, but he still wants to play for Argentina’s national team. So how does he work this kind of straddling between two countries, two selves?
Messi: I mean, it’s interesting. It’s like this constant identity crisis. The coaches we spoke to on the podcast say that when he arrived, he was excellent. He was very much a B, you know, a South American boy, meaning he was very individualistic. He played super aggressively. You know, he improvised like like a jazz musician on the field. That’s our style. And he wouldn’t pass it. At first in Spain, they’re like, listen, you got to pass it. This we work, right?
Mary Harris: This is a team sport.
Messi: Yeah, European soccer is a lot more orchestral. It’s very orchestrated and synchronized. And I would say Latin American soccer has always been very much like jazz, like improvisation. And so they’re like, pass it. There’s even like fights early on because he won’t pass it. And he’s talented enough to get away with it to some degree. But they’re like, listen, you don’t just make goals. Make goals happen. Pass it to your teammates and let them make goals, too. And then when he goes back to Argentina to play on the national squad for things like the World Cup, they’re like, What’s up with all the passing? Like, it’s just they see he just literally his first coach told us he played like a Spaniard. He didn’t have this do or die ethos anymore.
Mary Harris: It wasn’t just the passing that bothered Argentine players and fans. It was the losing. Because while Lionel Messi was a superstar in Europe, his magic seemed to fade when he came back home. Jasmine remembers this one tournament in particular, the 2011 Copa America.
Messi: I mean, at this point, Messi is a superstar in Barcelona, and people around the world are like, have Messi fever. And he comes home in 2011 for the Copa America. It was a big deal because Argentina was hosting it and it’s a disaster.
Speaker 3: It was messy. For the frustration for Argentina.
Messi: Like there’s this one game we highlight in the podcast against Colombia. And it’s just it’s terrible. Like, the Argentina team is just stumbling around. They’re fighting with each other. They kind of take the ball from each other. Allegedly, there was a fight in the locker room.
Speaker 3: Against all the odds of beating the hosts Argentina and out. And Uruguay have got such a dreadful record.
Messi: I mean, he’s getting booed by like a crowd of like tens of thousands of fans are booing him in his.
Mary Harris: Home country.
Messi: In his home state. In front of his family and his girlfriend. It’s just like the ultimate humiliation. And then we lose out of that cup. And it’s just to me, 2011 was like the ultimate. How can this be possible? How can he do so badly with Argentina?
Mary Harris: And it’s weird because he’s winning so much in Spain. Right. But then when he comes back to Argentina, like the commentators you talked to, you basically said he seemed kind of lost.
Messi: I think the style was really different. And I think for a very long time, Argentina had this thing where they would created like teams of superstars, like superheroes of soccer. But as many commentators rightly pointed out, a lot of amazing individuals does not make a team. A team makes a team like people playing together. And so for a very long time, Argentina is trapped in this. And this is like freelancers, you know, who who play with each other for World Cups and major international tournaments. But they’re not really a team. And Massi is very used to playing with like a team, like a family. And Barsa.
Mary Harris: Did Argentineans blame Messi, though, for all the losses?
Messi: Oh, a hundred persons. The idea was you’re the best in the world. You do magical things with Basel for the Europeans, and then you come back in and you can barely perform for us. And I, I think deep down inside there was some hurt. Soccer is really symbolic. You see it with the World Cup. I mean, there’s there’s all these, like symbols and stories that have to do with a lot more than the sport. Right. And I think Messi kind of represented this person, this kid who was super talented and we lost him because of this tragic economic situation. And he could be brilliant somewhere else, you know, And then he would come home and he wasn’t that good. And it was like, what’s your good one? You got paid in euros, see?
Speaker 3: Committed suicide. You’re missing an opportunity to continue. Important.
Mary Harris: Has Messi himself ever spoken about what it was like to kind of code switch in this way, go from playing European soccer to Argentinean soccer and to feel so much heat from people in his home country.
Messi: He hasn’t talked about the code switching. His coaches have talked a lot about it. He has talked about how devastating it was for him to be critiqued and and torn down in his home country. Like he’s he’s he’s really talked about that, about just how much it hurt him, how angry it made him, how upsetting it was, how, you know, this is this is what kept him up at night. This was what he wanted the most, you know, was to be recognized back home. And yeah, he’s talked about, like, how that broke him down.
Mary Harris: 2016 seemed to be a breaking point for Messi in Argentina. What happened?
Messi: So in 2016, they get to the final for the Copa America, which is like the World Cup for South, but just for South America. It’s the South American Cup. And they go to this final with Chile and he misses a really important penalty. And it’s just very hard to watch him after that penalty kick. He’s just like staring into space, kind of sobbing silently. And you can tell, like, this is a person who this was his dream to come back home. And this is the moment where he might not go to hell. And he realizes that.
Mary Harris: When we come back, how Messi won Argentina back. After that disastrous Copa America final in 2016, Messi announced he was done playing for Argentina. Reporters asked about his dream of winning with the Argentinian national team. All he said was I searched for it. It was what I wanted the most and it was not given to me. Now it’s over. After years of picking on Messi, ripping him apart for letting them down. You’d think Argentineans would be glad to see him go. Instead, his resignation shocked his home country.
Messi: There was like a national meltdown. People were like, Please come back. Some subway stations had changed their signs, their digital signs to. Please don’t leave us. I mean, there was, like, um, it’s kind of a come to Jesus moment. I think most people realized we really took this too far.
Mary Harris: Yeah. Kids were posting these viral videos. Yeah. Where it’s like they’re crying and they’re, like, begging him to come back.
Messi: Yeah. For going to see. My goodness.
Mary Harris: Which is so.
Messi: Yeah.
Mary Harris: Like, it’s intense to think about little children being upset like this.
Messi: Well, yeah, soccer is kind of a religion, and it’s almost like you’re a kid and you’re being told Santa Claus isn’t coming here anymore. You know, it’s kind of devastating. And there’s a lot of, you know, commentators and saying, why would we treat our a hero like this? But I think that it’s a two part journey or a two way journey because. I was interested in the story because I think Massie had to make his journey. But also Argentina had to make a journey towards B.C. of acceptance.
Mary Harris: What was the journey for Argentina?
Messi: I think it was understanding a different kind of hero. I mean, he wasn’t the hero we were used to. We were used to heroes like Maracana, Diego Maradona, the World Cup winner.
Mary Harris: And he won the World Cup in 1986.
Messi: Right. He was a soccer legend and he was a tough guy. He was like this tough city guy, you know? He was slick. He was a smooth talker. He came from really dire poverty. He was a brown kid. He was like from the outskirts of society in Argentina.
Mary Harris: And my understanding is that he, like, carried the team on his back. Yeah, he shot a lot of the goals.
Messi: He carried the team on his back. He was the quintessential South American player. He was loud and boisterous and he was also really problematic. But he was a different type of hero. And I think our journey was also understanding that there’s different kinds of heroes.
Mary Harris: Yeah, I was reading that Argentinean feminists have kind of embraced Messi as like a more team oriented player. And as opposed to this individual who’s callous, rough and controversial.
Messi: I’m so glad you brought that up, because I think that this iteration of the team are current team. Well, it is really being embraced by feminists because it’s seen as like a less toxic masculinity. You know, you have the goalie that you all Martinez, who talks very openly in every press conference about his therapist. Messi is like kind of a very respectful, soft spoken family guy. He’s very wholesome.
Mary Harris: It’s like a TED Lasso ification.
Messi: It is. It is. I was actually, you know, he got in they got into some tiff with the Netherlands players, and Massey said something like, Get out of here, Goofy. Which is I mean, no one has pointed this out, but I’m like. He’s he’s a goofy like, that’s that’s angry, Marcy. She’s a goofy. And I think that yeah, there’s something very wholesome about him. And I think at first, for a generation that grew up with that kind of like punk rock bravado, soccer player, that was really weird.
Mary Harris: It wasn’t until just last year at another Copa America, the Jasmine says Lionel Messi really proved that his way of playing soccer could win.
Messi: Yeah.
Mary Harris: Basically the whole team had been rebuilt around Messi to kind of reinforce this team forward approach that he had coming from a European club. Yeah.
Mary Harris: So what happened in this game against Brazil? I know you were watching it from Brooklyn. What did you see and how did it change how you thought about Messi and and how did it change how your friends thought about Messi, too?
Messi: Well, I mean, I was really checked out. I was pretty fed up with the Messi hatred. I thought it was just kind of embarrassing and it’s nastiness. And I was also just tired of. You know, just this losing streak. It was like over two decades of not winning.
Mary Harris: So you weren’t expecting much?
Messi: No, I was at the bar, like flirting with some guy. I was like, I’m not going to pay attention to this. It’s also, you know, Brazil, Argentina, it’s a classic. Brazil is, like, formidable. Their team is. Brazil plays beautiful soccer. They’re just they’re a machine.
Speaker 3: Brazil versus Argentina is much more than a simple game of football. These jerseys make the world stand still to watch their games. Brazil in the yellow and green jerseys Argentina.
Messi: And so everyone assumed, myself included, this is going to be like they’re going to run over us with like a lawnmower. It’s going to it’s not going to be fun to watch. And it was like almost immediately we scored. And that’s when I tuned in.
Speaker 3: Looking long time.
Speaker 4: Maria got him behind the mistake by the defense. And he’s got. In Brazil.
Messi: But it was actually such a team effort. And what I loved when I was watching it, you know, Argentina used to have this thing which was positive. I see. He’ll fix this somehow.
Mary Harris: Hmm.
Messi: In this game, the other team members were scoring and creating goal opportunities. I just was looking and I was like, Oh, we’re playing differently. Something happened and we’re playing really differently and we’re playing well. And perhaps more importantly, they looked like they were having fun, you know, for a very long time. Watching Masi and the team play, it was just like. It was like watching an unhappy marriage. And now they were having fun. They were ribbing each other. They were joking. They were smiley. Clearly, the vibe had shifted in 2020. Argentina.
Mary Harris: So we’re talking in the middle of the 2022 World Cup a year and change after this victory for Messi in Argentina. Can you just update me on how Argentina’s doing? I know they’re going to play today. Tuesday. So how’s the tournament been going for them?
Messi: Well, we were off to a really rocky start. I think that game against Saudi, it was a historic upset.
Mary Harris: Yeah, they lost.
Messi: It was insane. I was watching at five in the morning and just like screaming at the TV set, like, how is this happening?
Speaker 4: The South American’s mammoth 36 game unbeaten run comes to a shuddering halt and Saudi Arabia celebrates a victory which will be noted right around the globe.
Messi: And then Argentina recovered its footing. I think that game against Saudi like really scared the Argentine squad because then, you know, we left that group on the top. So we played against Mexico and one played against Poland and won. And then Australia, Netherlands, like during that penalty, I was hugging a friend who was describing the penalties to me in my ear.
Mary Harris: Oh, like you couldn’t watch?
Messi: No, I couldn’t watch that because.
Mary Harris: That game went into overtime. It was just.
Messi: Overtime and penalties. It was one of the most stressful games I’ve ever had to watch. And so I think we regained footing. I think starting now, there’s no easy games.
Mary Harris: Argentina plays Croatia today in the semifinals. How are you going to watch.
Messi: In Between My Fingers?
Mary Harris: You know, your podcast is called The Last Cup because there’s so much speculation and this will be the final go round for messy. That seems to make this a really important set of games for him. Like impossible pressure.
Messi: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think there’s a lot of pressure, but I think he’s reached a point of maturity and his fans have reached a point of maturity, of understanding that, you know, what he needed to achieve. He’s achieved, which is people in his home country love him. And there’s no doubt that he’s one of the best players in the world.
Mary Harris: Do you think people in his home country. We’ll stand by him even if he loses.
Messi: Yeah, I think so. I think he’s reached that point. I mean, will he ever be like this religious like figure, like Diego Maradona? No, I think the moment on, I represented something completely different, and it’s kind of apples and oranges. But I think people love him and they appreciate him. And I think they will. And they’re going to stand by him. I mean, I think his journey has been completed. Whether or not he brings back a cup.
Mary Harris: Jasmine, I’m so grateful for your work on this podcast and for coming on the show.
Messi: Thank you so much.
Mary Harris: Good luck.
Messi: Thank you.
Mary Harris: Jasmine GARSD is the host of NPR’s podcast The Last Cup. And that’s our show. What next is produced by Elena Schwartz, Carmel Delshad and Madeline Ducharme. We’re getting a ton of support right now from Anna Phillips, Victoria, Dominguez, and Jared Downing. We are led by Alicia montgomery and Joanne Levine. And I’m Mary Harris. Go track me down on Twitter. Say hello. I’m at Mary’s desk. Thanks for listening. I’ll get you back here tomorrow.
