Colorism, Cluelessness, and Carefree Black Girls
S1: This is a word, a podcast from Slate. I’m your host Jason Johnson. The conversation about pop culture is often dominated by white male critics, and that means that black people, particularly black women, are relegated to stereotypes. But culture critic Zeba Blay says it’s time to rewrite the script.
S2: We’re not saying do not have depictions or representations of strong black women, but also recognize that strength and weakness can exist in the same body.
S1: The author of Carefree Black Girls Coming Up on a Word with Me Jason Johnson. Stay with us! Welcome to a World, a podcast about race and politics and everything else. I’m your host Jason Johnson black artists shape so much of American popular culture, from music to television to filmmaking. But for too long, the people who write about it have been disproportionately white, male and pretty much clueless about race. That means a lot of the cultural discussion about everything from the rise of Cardi B to the legacy of The Cosby Show. The controversy of Dave Chappelle has left out important context black context. One person who’s been working to get it right is Zeba Blay. She’s a culture and film critic who has written for Jezebel, Essence and The New York Times. Zeba Blay was one of the first to popularize the hashtag Carefree Black Girls, and that helped inspire her new book Carefree Black Girls A Celebration of Black Women in Popular Culture and Zeba Blay joins us now. Welcome to a word.
S2: Thank you for having me. I’m so delighted to be talking to you.
S1: What was the sort of idea behind Carefree black girls? Like, where did that that hashtag come from? What was the impetus for it? And what were you all trying to say with that hashtag?
S2: For me, the tweet that kind of started it all came from a place of me trying to make sense of my own sadness. There had been a Tumblr blog back in the day called Carefree White Girls that the writer Colin Meyerson had made. And it was. It was like pictures of Taylor Swift, you know, frolicking in a field and white girls and flower crowns and. And it was a really interesting sort of highlight of how these these images of white women living their best lives are so ubiquitous. And yet images of black girls doing the same thing are not represented in the same way are not even like considered like that isn’t part of like the narrative of what black womanhood is. So I think that’s where that impetus for me came from was an answer to that concept. But then it became like a whole other thing, you know?
S1: And your book, you talk about battles with depression. You talk about like gaining weight, losing weight and those sorts of struggles. And what I saw hashtags like, you know, Carefree black girls or black boy joy, which is one that sort of came out a couple of years ago. You know, there was a part of me. I was like, Oh my gosh, this is good because again, it’s images of Carefree, black kids and everything else like that. But it also sometimes can feel like pressure, because when you don’t feel that way, when you do feel weighed down by the world, when you are living under administration with a presence like basically, I hate black people, it’s open season on them like that can be a challenging in of itself. How did you find this balance between what may have been your personal emotional struggles and this desire to be like? But no, we do have to celebrate. We got to publicly celebrate because so much of our joy is taken from us.
S2: What the book was going to be and why they became are two very different things. And initially it was going to be a much more straightforward sort of analysis and appraisal of black women in pop culture, with none of my experience baked into that. And as I was writing it, I was like, I’m talking about how the complexities and the nuances of black women in pop culture should be centered in conversations about culture. And yet, I’m afraid to stand up for myself because I’ve been taught that, you know that in order to be good, I have to be objective and when really objective means, you know, white and male. So delving into that and like deciding to place myself into this sort of meditation on representation and what it means to be free really made me sort of create a new relationship and a new understanding of Carefree them. Because for me, it’s not about pretending that the pain doesn’t exist, right? It’s about acknowledging the fact that I have the capacity for joy as well as pain I have, you know, and giving myself your permission to relish in that in the moments when I’m feeling joyful and to also have compassion for myself in the moments when I’m not.
S1: And I think about that, I like what you just said there about compassion when the moment that you are on because I always think about the, you know, Carefree black girl black boy joy, all these sorts of things are also put out sort of in contrast to this idea of the strong black woman, a strong black woman. If I understand you correctly, it’s more about this idea that, like our entire lives, don’t have to be dedicated to whatever outsiders struggle they want to impart upon us that that we can sometimes just laugh, that we can just have a damn good time that we can be. We can be ratchet and respectful. We can be profane and profound. That’s that’s how I saw. Does that sort of makes sense?
S2: Yeah. And you know, you just said you just mentioned the sort of the sort of strong black woman trope. And I have a chapter in the book about about that sort of archetype. For me, it’s like black women. There are strong black women. We’re not saying do not have depictions or representations of strong black women, but also recognize that strength and weakness can exist in the same body. You know, the same as joy and pain can exist in the same body. And being able to recognize and name that nuance of experience is, I think, what’s often lacking in conversations about about black images. And so that was really something that I really wanted to explore and grapple with.
S1: We’re going to take a short break when we come back more on honoring black women in popular culture with Zeba Blay, this is a word Will Jason Johnson stay to. This is Jason Johnson, host of a word Slate’s podcast about race and politics and everything else, I want to take a moment to welcome our new listeners. If you’ve discovered a word and like what you hear. Please subscribe rate and review wherever you listen to podcasts and let us know what you think by writing us at a word at Slate.com. Thank you. You’re listening to a word with Jason Johnson today, we’re talking about pop culture with writer Zeba Blay. Her new book is Carefree Black Girls, A Celebration of Black Women and Popular Culture. You’ve weighed in on the controversy surrounding the new movie The Harder They Fall on Netflix. Now, look, this movie is great, and it’s like a who’s who of black actors. You got Regina King, Lakeith Stanfield, Idris Elba. But some people were really irritated about the casting of actress Zazie Beetz as Stagecoach Mary. Here’s a clip of her with her co-star Jonathan Majors.
S3: I made things. I’ve built things in anger and risk all that just because you decide to come back. Tried? Yeah.
S1: Okay, well, I guess I came to the writers room because I ain’t talking to them because I thought, Honey. Yeah. Thanks, James. I’ll see that you’ve written about what it means to have a woman like Stagecoach Mary, who was a real person who was a plus sized, dark skinned black woman being played by Zazie Beetz. Talk a little bit about why that is a problem above and beyond the historical inaccuracy of it, but why that is sort of a larger problem in black culture, both from a Colorism and a Size’s. I mean, even just sort of the sexuality presentation.
S2: Here’s the thing. People forget that like to critique something is not to hate it. It’s not to be be out blindly outraged by it, right? Pointing out the history and the reality of this character that she’s playing. It’s a way to engage with the art. Like, Isn’t that what we’re supposed to do when we watch movies? So there’s that. But what I will say is that, you know, Zazie is a great actress and she, you know, she she she’s great in the movie, but there is a history and the context behind why she’s in this movie. There is a history in the context behind why a darker skinned, bigger, older Stagecoach Mary was, you know, at this point in history, an older woman wasn’t chosen for this role. I mean, it’s because Zazie is she conforms to the idea of like, who’s the right black lead like, you know, black female lead? Who’s the right one? It’s important that we make the distinction that the choice to cast her is a choice that, you know, because people were like, Oh, like these white casting directors, black people are all up in this movie like producing, directing, writing, right? So. So I think that’s also pointing to the fact that the when we talk about who’s in the room and who gets to make decisions, we have to also like understand that there’s a responsibility that we have, you know, to consider these things. All I can really say is that for me, it would be nice to see a Dark-skinned big black woman be fought for and loved and cherished and be sort of like, you know, the prize and the goal, not just because of representation, like, oh, seeing yourself on screen, but because it would be interesting and different.
S1: So you talk also in your book about your Ghanaian-American and you talk about how you sort of in your home country, you know, you see full page ads for bleaching, cream and skin liners, and that stuff is very, very common for actors and actresses from the continent. I mean, goodness gracious. Nollywood is full of commercials and advertisements for fun, skin lightening and everything else like that. For those who don’t understand, because I think you’re tapping into something is really important, here is the idea that lighter skin gives you greater power that any white supremacist system being lighter is inherently better. It’s not just something that manifests in Hollywood casting decisions and who’s considered sexy and whose body can be presented. But it goes all the way back to the continent now, and not just in Ghana and not just in Nigeria. But there are whole commercials in Southeast Asia, in India and Pakistan and Malaysia about lightening your skin. Can you talk a little bit about about how Colorism is a global phenomenon and not just something that we see in film?
S2: That’s something that growing up, I didn’t even realize it wasn’t until I was older that I understood the way colonialism has ravaged the entire world. I think that it’s interesting because at the end of the day, color is all about hierarchy. You know, we talk about like the paper bag test and like, you know, all these sorts of like arbitrary made up, you know, distinctions and. It’s interesting because I recently saw the movie passing.
S3: You know, I haven’t had to worry as much as you think. There are my aunts who say they took me in after father died and gave me a home of sorts. Very white, very respectable. Very religious. I met John not long after, and as soon as I turned 18 and legal, we got married and well, Madoff left for good.
S2: It was so fascinating to me because watching that movie and looking at Ruth Negga, who plays the person who was passing for me, it’s like, I’m that’s a black woman. That is the absurdity of color and the fact that we black people have. We’ve had to have this sort of nuanced understanding of futurism in Colorism and white people don’t. So for them, a light skinned person is just a light skinned person. So there’s layers to it. And I say that because I was recently having a conversation with one of my friends who’s South Asian, and she said, like, there’s that same sort of like phenomenon in her culture, right, where there’s also this understanding of the distinctions between this type of Colorism and that type of coloring. And I don’t know, I feel it feels like it’s interesting how so many people of color we all have this sort of shared experience in a way, even though it’s in different contexts and white people don’t know anything about it like that is what’s so interesting to me.
S1: We’re going to take a short break when we come back more on honoring black women in popular culture with Zeba Blay, this is a word with Jason Johnson. Stay tuned. You’re listening to a word with Jason Johnson today. We’re talking about uplifting black women in popular culture with Zeba Blay so Zeba. This is something that has been on everybody’s lips for weeks now. Dave Chappelle and you’ve written about Chappelle in his recent show on Netflix, The Closer and His Assistant, so he’s in danger of being canceled for jokes about transgender people. You know, what are your thoughts on not just Chappelle as a media icon? Because that is that’s one track in this, but also this sort of thing about cancel culture, which began almost as a joke in sort of black queer communities and has now been co-opted by the right and right adjacent white people. And there are black tethers intruding into something else entirely.
S2: It’s so annoying, like it’s the same thing that happened to woke, right, like it’s funny when you when you said Dave Chappelle, I thought in my head, Oh brother, I’m just like, It’s just it’s it’s exhausting and more than exhausting. It’s boring. Like, I’m I’m so bored by people. And, you know, and that’s what I wrote about with with Chappelle. It’s like, you’re doing the thing you’re doing the thing that as a comedian, you do, which is like saying things that you know, are going to cause a reaction and then using that as a marker of your genius and your sort of like rebelliousness. And it’s boring because then there is no because there’s no substance to anything that you’re saying. It’s like you’re still talking about this and like and in the years since you’ve made those first transphobic jokes like this is where you landed, it would just have been so much more interesting for him to actually engage with with the criticism, because I think in the closer that there’s any real engagement with what actual trans people, how actual trans people feel, it’s more of this sort of like nebulous idea of the LGBTQ, and it’s like something that’s been really frustrating for me. And in watching his comedy in respect to this, this issue is that he seems to forget that there are like queer black people, you know, and I feel like to go straight to I am canceled. Clearly, you are not canceled. If anything, this is creating even more interest. And and, you know, an engagement with your work. You got what you wanted, which is the uproar. And yet you don’t actually want to consider or be in dialogue with the very people who are being affected by your work. And I find that boring.
S1: So, Zeba, you know, part of what I’m seeing here, Will Chappelle, and this is, you know, as a pop culture critic, I’m curious that your thoughts on this. This is either a new era of his career. Or it’s a sign that he’s going downhill. And here’s my sort of theory on this, because like I said one at the end of the day, the closure wasn’t funny. And as I said, you know, your goal ultimately is to be funny. And if you’re not damn funny, I don’t care what kind of larger political system you’re going to make. But part of what I’m also seeing now is it reminds me of, you know, almost 25, 30 years ago when Michael Jackson did his black or white video and he ends the video with this crazy thing where he runs around and grabs his crotch and like, beats up a car. Once you go into shock jock mode. Isn’t that also a sign that you’re running out of material because of Chappelle cells only shtick now is I’m pissing off the woke folk. That, to me is a sign that your youth, the cupboard is bare of you as an entertainer.
S2: I think that every artist goes through phases in their in their career, and he’s in the phase where he is very famous and very rich, and therefore there’s a disconnect between him and us already. And so his approach to comedy, I mean, it’s not funny, like the culture isn’t funny, but it’s it’s it’s quite fascinating because you’re seeing him have to reckon with what you’re talking about, which is, Oh, wow, like I am of a bygone era. I’m a dinosaur anyway. And I don’t say that in like in a mean way, just like in the reality of what the thing is, and it’s actually really interesting to see what artists in this stage of their career do with that at the end of the day, the closer. And that’s how I feel about all like quote unquote problematic art. I don’t think it should. It should not exist, right? You know, I think it should exist. And I think that it is a tool that we can use a to have these kinds of conversations, which are part of like progressing the culture. And B, they provide a snapshot of who we were in this time. Like, you know, when you people watch old episodes of 30 Rock and they’re like, You like, that was kind of, you know, I like that because you get to be like, we get to engage with the past and understand like where we are and where we’re going. And so the only thing for me with him that is frustrating is that he’s in this place as an artist where he’s not willing to change. And I think that is a sign of. I want to say the word mediocrity, but that’s that seems too intense. So I would say it’s a sign of a stagnation.
S1: I want to say this, I want to close with this is like I said, I was so excited. I love having this conversation with you. Reminds me so much of chatting with my friend. What does the world need to know? What does our audience need to know about what the challenges and successes are of being a black woman? A. A dark skin plus size Ghanaian-American black woman in this space? Of cultural criticism, because, as you said, white guys get to critique everything from, you know, Marvel Cinematic Universe films to James Bond to passing, and their identity is never called into question. But if you’re a black woman with all those descriptors and you’re talking about the harder they fall or you’re talking about Lovecraft Country or you’re talking about, you know, the latest Katherine Heigl, whatever film you know, there’s people who always want to troll you and say, Well, you’re only looking at this from her perspective. What are some of the challenges with that? And what are some of the triumphs that come from being one of the few black women in this space?
S2: So one of the challenges is definitely the riskiness of having an opinion as a black woman. You know, I think that people, people don’t like when black women have opinions. We have opinions and suddenly we’re being aggressive or we need to like have received on receipts to like, prove our expertise and our understanding of what we’re talking about. For me, just as someone who’s written online for the last, you know, over a decade, being constantly, you know, subject to harassment and, you know, long emails like, you know, the Dave Chappelle thing. I got like 20 emails from who I’m 100 percent sure were white men, just like going and I’m like, Do you really think I’m going to sit here and read all of this? The entitlement, the entitlement that you have to my time and my energy when I said what I said is so that can be really challenging because as I was coming up as a writer, I was constantly made to feel that, you know, if I’m writing about a film, I should not consider it or bring any of who I am to my appraisal of that film, which to me is so absurd because we bring who we are to every piece of art that we experience. You’re so literally you’re supposed to like that is literally the literally the point. What you’re really saying is you don’t care about my experience and where where I sit in the culture. So that’s definitely a challenge. But I will say, you know, when I first started out, I felt like the only one. But now there are so many amazing black women writing cultural criticism and writing film criticism. And I’m I’m grateful that we we exist and we’re all existing at the same moment. I mean, my book came out a week after Cecily Bowen’s book Bad Fat Black Girl, and her book came out like a week after. Sometimes I trip on how happy we could be by Nicole Perkins, and it’s like, Wow, like, we all exist. At the same time, we’re in conversation with one another. That makes me really happy because I think a lot of times in the media, there’s this idea that there can only ever be one at a time. But it’s like, actually, no like, we need a wider breadth of like opinions and experiences because as you said, with all those descriptors, I have a very specific experience. And I think that is the value and that is what I bring every time I sit down to write. And I think it’s important to honor that, you know?
S1: Zeba Blay is a culture and film critic, her book, Carefree Black Roles, is out now. Thank you so much for joining me today. I really, really enjoyed this conversation.
S2: Thank you so much.
S1: And that’s a word for this week. The show’s email is a word at Slate.com. This episode was produced by Ahyiana Angel and Jasmine Ellis. Aisha Saluja is the managing producer of podcast Slate. Gabriel Roth is Slate’s editorial director for Audio. Alicia Montgomery is the executive producer of Podcasts at Slate. June Thomas is senior managing producer of the Slate podcast Network. Our theme music was produced by Don Will. I’m Jason Johnson. Tune in next week for word.
