Friendship Fiasco
Jamilah Lemieux: This episode contains explicit language. Welcome to Mom and Dad are Fighting Slate’s parenting podcast for Monday, October 31st. Happy Halloween. This is the Friendship Fiasco edition. I’m Jamilah Lemieux, a writer contributor to Slate’s Care and Feeding Parenting Advice column and mom to Naima, who is nine and a half. And we live in Los Angeles.
Zak Rosen: I’m Zak Rosen. I make the Best Advice Show podcast. I’m the dad of Noah, who’s five, and Amy who’s two. We live in Detroit.
Fiona Kong: And I’m Fiona Kong, founder of the Home Sweet Home Journal for Co-parenting Families. I am the mom to six year old Emile, and we live in Los Angeles.
Jamilah Lemieux: Today on this show, we’ve got a letter from a parent whose child is dealing with less than ideal behavior within their friend group. One kid is struggling and everybody’s impacted. What should they do? Well, we’re going to talk about it. First, we wanted to jump into our Monday mailbag. We’re going to share a few letters. The first one we got in response to our recent birthday party episode.
Fiona Kong: Dear mom and dad, we just celebrated my now eight year old’s birthday. We’ve been able to do small family things over the past couple of years, but she wanted a friend birthday party this year. I was stressed about activities and money, and then I read a post from Busy Toddler, and it was a great reminder that we need to tone down the parties. We don’t have to continue doing these epic Pinterest Instagram worthy parties. They just want to play with their friends and have some cake.
Fiona Kong: We ended up having eight friends over to our small house and we didn’t plan any activities. We decorated with streamers and balloons. They had a blast and my daughter was so happy. I know the letter writer said that they can’t do it at their house, but going to a playground has built in fun, even in the rain. And most parks have covered spaces for adults, which is nice. I think we’ve gotten into this competitive parenting space where we’re trying to outdo the last party or we’re not being good parents, and that’s about us, not the kids. They just want to play with their friends and have cake. Make it simple. Another cheap indoor option is reserving a side room at the public library. Those are free, but you will have to bring some activities and they’re covered.
Jamilah Lemieux: We also got more feedback from our Don’t Fear the Diagnosis episode.
Fiona Kong: Dear Mom and Dad, I’ve been listening to your show for a few years and I mostly listen as a parent, but I’m also a school based occupational therapist. I have to say I love your knowledge of pediatric occupational therapy after hearing references to it in multiple episodes. It’s great for a profession to get these positive mentions since many people don’t know about O.T. if they haven’t had personal experiences. I thought all three hosts did an amazing job answering the autism question from a few weeks ago. The one thing I would add would be to start the conversation by asking questions to gauge where the parent is in the process. Do they have any concerns? Is autism on their radar? Have they recently been to their pediatrician? In my experience, having background information about where the parent is in the process and meeting them there is super helpful and it leads to better conversations.
Zak Rosen: Yeah, I think tone down in general is great advice for parents to follow. Just just tone it down. Tone down the parties, tone down the costumes. Let’s stop putting so much pressure on ourselves. Right. I think that was some good advice.
Jamilah Lemieux: Definitely know. We’re glad that you feel reflected as an occupational therapist and also that you enjoyed our answer to that question. And we appreciate you extending your thoughts to us and offering some additional advice. We always love hearing about your experiences and getting your sage wisdom, so please keep sending those letters in. You can do that by emailing mom and dad at Slate.com. And on that note, we’re going to take a quick break. And when we come back, we’re going to dive right into our listener question. We are back and ready to hear today’s listener question.
Fiona Kong: Dear mom and Dad. My child attends a rodeo school with a small class size. So short term and limited options for outside friends. A mixed gender friend group has formed, but one member of the group is struggling to connect in exhibiting behaviors that are causing others to want to exclude them. Apparently the kid is not bad, just annoying. Another kid is hosting a get together and has not invited the struggling child. My child is invited and wants to attend, but we’re both agonizing over what to do. My kid is always kind to the other child but doesn’t enjoy the person. Obviously, the party will not remain a secret because we’re in a small community and I am friends with the other parent. What would you advise for either of us? Thanks. Friendship. Fiasco.
Zak Rosen: Well, first of all, I had to look up the idea that Department of Defense Education activity like a military school on a base. But I think that’s beside the point. This is this is a dynamic we’ve all seen in our lives. It’s agonizing just to imagine the different facets of this, because this kid is annoying. He’s not bad, is annoying. So why would you want to hang out with them at the same time, excluding him in this small community when you know it’s going to get back to him that there was this party and he was and they weren’t invited, like, that’s going to feel terrible.
Zak Rosen: I think it’s too early to, you know, extricate this kid from parties. I think that they deserve another chance. I really want to know what they’re doing That’s annoying. And I wonder if your child friendship fiasco it’s so it’s so sweet that they’re always kind to the other child and they’re they’re agonizing over what to do because this is a decision that’s weighing on them. And though they’re not the ones deciding whether or not to include this kid or not, you know, maybe reach out to the host of this party and kind of talk through it with them and and just like wonder aloud with them.
Zak Rosen: Well, what if what if you invite invite them this time and all? And I’ll kind of take the this the annoying child under my wing and and maybe there’s something that that I can do to to help them, you know, feel more comfortable. Maybe they’re acting out of insecurity or discomfort. But like all in all, I just think that just excluding this kid right now is not it’s just not nice. It’s just not not nice. But I don’t know because who wants to hang out with an annoying kid? What do you think?
Fiona Kong: Zac I completely agree with everything you’ve said because this isn’t an easy, you know, situation where you know there’s implications on both ends, right? This kid deserves. I also believe that kids, you know, they’re young and the hurt that they will feel, you know, and they need to see these kids all the time. I think that makes the situation so much worse. So I feel like if you are good enough friends with the annoying kids, parents maybe have a conversation with them about, you know, if you’re able to pinpoint where their child is struggling, you know, frame it in a way that is helpful because chances are they don’t know what the problem is. Right. And they can’t correct it if they don’t know what their problem is.
Fiona Kong: I do like the idea of going to the host and saying something because, you know, we talked about exclusion. It’s just it’s really shitty. I personally would still invite the kid In a small community. You be inclusive because it’s I think the interactions going forward are going to be really awkward. That’s what I would say. I would definitely try to have conversations with both parents and try to make things, you know, figure out a happy medium.
Jamilah Lemieux: Yeah, no, I agree with you both. I definitely think it’s worth reaching out to the hosts and just talking about how painful it could be for a child in such a small group to be left out. Then having that conversation with the parent of the child in question that, hey, you know, there is seems to be a little tension between so-and-so and the group. I’ve observed some things. Could we maybe chat about it? You know, and I know that’s a very courageous conversation to have to have. I mean, nobody wants to be told anything negative. About their child.
Jamilah Lemieux: But, you know, I just think of so many people that have suffered socially. You know, things perhaps could have been different if there had been some intervention and so on, and say, hey, these behaviors are really people don’t like being treated that way. You know, you got to work on how you talk to people. You got to keep your hands to yourself, you know, things that can become these kind of deeply antisocial behavior or a child that kids grow up being really isolated from their peers and does not stay. They can’t have meaningful friendships, but you know that they’re not able to really do well in this broader group when it doesn’t necessarily have to be that way. Because, like you said, the behaviors are not like, bad, just annoying. I wish that parents of annoying children were told, Hey, your kid’s kind of out here annoying everyone sooner than later, you know, so it can be addressed.
Zak Rosen: I interviewed this woman who’s going to be on the show, I think, in the next couple of weeks. Her name is Dr. Marissa Franco, and she just wrote a book about friendship and its importance in our lives. She’s a professor and a psychologist and a researcher. And and one of the things she told me, a key thing that we can do with our friends is normalize telling them when when they’ve heard us. And that’s that’s something that I think that speaks to like telling this, you know, quote, annoying kid that they’re being annoying or saying it in a nicer way is only going to help. That’s going to make them feel closer to you and vice versa. And it’s going to make them aware of their, you know, annoying tendencies.
Zak Rosen: So by flouting them, by alienating them, by not making them feel like they are welcome, that that isn’t going to get it’s not going to get you anywhere. And it’s certainly just going to make this kid not very happy with themselves because they’re not even going to know why they weren’t included. They’re just not going to get this invitation. Then they’re going to be scratching their head saying, What did I do wrong? God, it I’m not good enough. Like, what? What? What did I do? Like, there’s a nice way to tell someone like you said, when when they’re being annoying.
Fiona Kong: And it definitely will impact their self-esteem moving forward. And at that age. Right. If you care so much about being included, you know, kids, they talk and you can’t really hide that stuff. So, you know, I always think about when I was a kid, I wasn’t I was annoying, but I was a really shy kid. And if someone had come up to me and be like, you know, I was good in like, small circles, small interactions, and if I had a, you know, an adult that understood that and was like, okay, we’re going to maybe cater to that. You know, we’re going to not, you know, try to help me in this situation.
Fiona Kong: When there’s so many kids, it’s overwhelming to me. It’s like that’s what helps everyone move forward. Right? And it would have helped me so much if, you know, there was that understanding and someone was there to be like, okay, like, I understand how like what’s going on with you and but this is how we want to help you. So ultimately, I think that’s the goal when everyone to do and feel well.
Jamilah Lemieux: Absolutely. Letter writer We would love an update on this. We hope our advice was helpful and please, please keep us posted. Everyone else. Do you have some advice for our letter writer? You can let us know by emailing us at Mom and Dad at Slate.com. That’s also where you can send any questions of your own.
Jamilah Lemieux: It is finally time for some recommendations. Fiona, what are you recommending?
Fiona Kong: This is going to be a fun one. My son and I just discovered this game and he loves board games. He’s so into them right now. I don’t know if you two know about it, but it’s called blockers and apparently it’s been around for a while. It’s this puzzle game, it’s a board, and there’s all these pieces and you have to it’s involves a lot of strategy, too, fitting all the pieces on the board. It’s kind of like Tetris, but we have an octagon shape board and or Hexagon, and it takes probably about 30 minutes and you can play it from My Child six now, but you could play it till your 99. So it’s a great piece of time and we just love it. We’ve played it. Every time he comes back home, it’s on our to do list.
Zak Rosen: So it’s not digital. It’s like an actual thing that you touch.
Fiona Kong: Yeah, it’s a tangible game.
Zak Rosen: Look in this Up podcast because I love Tetris, I.
Fiona Kong: Know it’s very different, but anything I’ve played before though, for the holidays, it’s fun for adults and kids like us.
Zak Rosen: Great. That’s awesome.
Jamilah Lemieux: Yeah, maybe we need to try. This is like a youth in their game. What about use Equity recommending?
Zak Rosen: I’m recommending forest bathing. I was up north in northern Michigan with some friends this weekend and just I got you know, we were with the kids, so I didn’t get much time to myself, but I went out in the back woods behind a friend’s house just for like 20 minutes all. I myself no one around other than trees and leaves and birds. And I just took it in. I just, like, had some time to myself. I did some some weird interpretive dancing based on how I was feeling in the moment. I did some singing I like, just climbed on some fallen trees like I was seven years old and it felt so good.
Zak Rosen: And then like an hour later, I was walking with Noah out in the woods and then, like, gave her some space, probably walked, like, 100 yards past her. And then she did her own solo forest bathing. And then I just heard, like some singing coming from the distance. And she was like, moving around. And I think at one point she was laying down, making like, leave angels, especially if you live in in the city, like me just getting out into the woods, even if it’s just like in the, you know, park inside the city. Something specifically about doing it by yourself, you know, leave your phone or put your phone away and just, like, taken the taken the fall. It’s a it’s a great time of year right now to be outside forest bathing.
Jamilah Lemieux: I’ve never heard that before.
Zak Rosen: Yeah. Yeah. It’s an actual term. I actually looked it up that it was created in 1982 by the Japanese Ministry of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries. And the word it’s in Japanese, but it translates to forest bathing or absorbing the forest atmosphere. So that’s what it is, just absorbing the atmosphere. You don’t actually take a bath. You can rub leaves all over yourself. There’s nothing wrong with that.
Fiona Kong: What time of day did you go?
Zak Rosen: Oh, good question. Late afternoon. It was like unseasonably warm. It was like in the high sixties here in Michigan this weekend. It was magnificent.
Fiona Kong: You’ve inspired me. I’d love to get out of the city here in L.A..
Zak Rosen: You had to do it. How about you, Jamilah?
Jamilah Lemieux: Well, I am recommending the movie Bro’s. It didn’t do super well. I don’t think it really met expectations, but I thought it was rather cute. You know, it’s not a perfect movie. It’s definitely significant to have a big box office rom com about two men, and I think it’s a sweet movie. It’s definitely not a family movie. It’s an adult film. There’s, you know, pretty solid performances. I mean, it’s a little LA. I think all movies are a little long. It’s about 2 hours and 15 minutes. I think everything could be a solid 90. I’m going to start like a solid 90. BBC.COM It’s like a movement to, like, make films of the 90 minutes long because my attention span is struggling. But I was pretty decent. I gave it a shot, you know, not the best movie I’ve ever seen, not the worst. But I thought it was good.
Zak Rosen: Did you laugh out loud a lot?
Jamilah Lemieux: No. I feel more chuckle funny. You know, I think I got more caught up in the love story than, you know, like, it actually being like a ha ha comedy. But there were a few there were a few last moments. Debra messing has a pretty memorable cameo, but not the biggest ha ha funny movie, but B, rom coms are.
Zak Rosen: Did you go to the theater?
Jamilah Lemieux: I went to the theater?
Zak Rosen: Yeah, Popcorn. I had.
Jamilah Lemieux: Popcorn. I had a cheese and Carvel mix. Those. Absolutely awful. Disgusting. The cheese had this weird aftertaste and I was dying. I’m from Chicago, where we have Garrett’s popcorn, which is so delicious and so good, and they are known for our cheese and caramel corn mix. There’s one in New York. There is not one out here. And boy, what they were selling at the movies was pretty disgusting. So shout out to the Regal Cinema at the Grill. That’s the worst popcorn I got. Like, it was so bad, I was so hungry. So I’m just kind of, like, casually, like the caramel was edible, but the cheese had this really bad aftertaste. Like it just so synthetic tasted like this is worse than like any little bag of popcorn you got at a birthday party when you were kids. Like, this was really bad. Really bad. I pay so much money for.
Zak Rosen: How much does a movie and popcorn costs in L.A.?
Jamilah Lemieux: Oh, my God, I’ve got to block it out of my mind. My mom freaks out like we went to the movies and she made a whole like, Oh, my God, that’s how much it costs. Like mom and son aside. So I don’t know. I feel like I block the cost out my mind because it’s so high, but I feel like it ticket is probably 16 or $17. And with taxes, you know, you’re pretty close to $20 per person or per adult. And then the popcorn, I’m sure I spent at least $20 on my popcorn and my free machine soda.
Zak Rosen: But you got to see a movie. And I mean, see a comedy in the theater. There’s just something really fun about it.
Jamilah Lemieux: There is something fun about it. Pretty quiet.
Zak Rosen: And I like Billy Eichner.
Jamilah Lemieux: I like Billy Eichner, too. He’s fine. All right. Well, you guys, thank you so much for another episode of mom and dad or fighting. Thank you for listening. As always, this episode of Mom and Dad or Fighting is produced by Christy Taiwo Makanjuola and Rosemary Belson for Fiona Kong and Zak Rosen and Jamilah Lemieux. Thank you for listening.
