The Internet Is an Invisible Force

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Speaker 1: I’m Alicia and.

Kia Miakka: I’m Kia Miakka Natisse.

Speaker 1: And this season on NPR’s Invisibilia, we take on.

Rachel Hampton: Control. Hi, I’m Rachel Hampton, and you’re listening to I See Why Am I? In case You Missed it, Slate’s podcast about Internet culture. And while every episode of I See Why Am I so special in my little place is. Even though I can’t remember half the episodes we’ve done, today’s episode is one that I’ll never forget. It’s a really special one.

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Rachel Hampton: With 2015 NPR’s podcast, Invisibilia has explored, quote, The intangible forces that shape human behavior things like ideas, beliefs, assumptions and emotions. It’s one of those shows that when I first started listening to podcasts was really often recommended to me. And for years the show was hosted by Hanna Rosen, Lulu Miller and Alix SPIEGEL until 2020, when the show was taken over by Kia Miakka Natisse and José Shah, both of who will be joining me later in the show. Our conversation was far ranging and fun and honestly really affirming, and I’m really excited for you all to hear it. After a short break.

Rachel Hampton: And we’re back today. I’m joined by Sean Kia Miakka Natisse, the co-host of NPR’s Invisibilia. I am so excited to have them here. I kind of feel like I’m in the presence of podcast royalty.

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Speaker 1: Oh, my dog can’t even know me.

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Rachel Hampton: Wow. We’ll get into that. But just so everyone can identify those voices. Hi, José.

Speaker 1: Hi, Rachel. Thanks for having us.

Rachel Hampton: Of course. And hi. Here.

Speaker 1: Hey.

Kia Miakka: Glad to be here.

Rachel Hampton: I’m, as I’ve said, so excited to have you here. So I’m going to ask you the question that I think I ask every single guest, which is what were your first Internet memories?

Kia Miakka: Oh, I love this question. I’m like, I’m ready. I’m in.

Speaker 1: Sixth.

Kia Miakka: Grade. It’s 1994.

Rachel Hampton: Take me back. Take me back.

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Kia Miakka: Someone sends my dad a C, d, r, like, you know, a CD-ROM of the Internet, AOL, you know, And they put the disk in and all of a sudden you’re hearing all these noises. Set up my first AOL account, K starbursts at AOL dot com. And then I distinctly remember like going to school and like being in like, I think I was in sixth grade and the only other person who had e-mail was like Amy Schakowsky. I mean, like, All right, Amy, I guess we’re emailing now because we’re the only two people who have this thing. But yeah, a very cherished memory of like getting access to the Internet and just the the way it was a place that, like, you went to, like, I am going online and it was a physical act.

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Rachel Hampton: Yes. That’s beautiful.

Speaker 1: Okay. So for me, the first memory that pops up of the Internet is like me and my best friend, Ingrid’s house. And like, she had m AOL messenger, instant messenger. And she convinced me to get an account. And I distinctly remember, like, trying it, like being in her house and, like, messaging with, like, people at school and, like, some strangers and like her older cousin who I thought was cute and, like, out of after a certain while, I remember being like, Nope, this isn’t for me.

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Speaker 1: Like this kind of communication and messaging just didn’t work for me.

Speaker 1: And I feel like that has stayed with me until now because I just don’t like if people do to me on Twitter or in like, I am so bad at messaging, I think, I can’t believe I bamboozled my way onto an esteemed podcast like about the Internet because like, I don’t consider myself an Internet person in the slightest, like I am constantly six months to five years behind.

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Rachel Hampton: Wow. I mean, there’s a podcast for that. You don’t have to keep.

Speaker 1: That as long as I have your blessing that I got it.

Rachel Hampton: I mean, if everyone kept up, I’d be out of a job. So you are so you are so blessed and not keeping up.

Speaker 1: I see. Is that I’m just so curious. Is that like a big portion of like your listenership, like people like me who, like, desperately need translators and guides to the Internet.

Rachel Hampton: That is kind of a big portion of our audience. So we try to make sure that people who are extremely online also get something from the show. But like a good portion of our audience, we actually have a lot of parents who listen to us who are just like, Thank God I can keep up with my 15 year old like I can. I’m not asking them what a Jojo Siwa is. I can. They’re always surprised that I know what’s happening online because I listen to your show and I’m always just like, Wow.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. You’re doing a real survey healing families generation across generation. Amazing.

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Rachel Hampton: Yes, that’s exactly what I thought I would be doing.

Rachel Hampton: Q Do you consider yourself an Internet person?

Kia Miakka: Yes, I literally have just set my phone to the black and white setting. It’s something for people with disabilities. If you have like overwhelming colors, you could set your phone to be black and white. But it’s also really good to do if you’re addicted to your phone. So whenever I find myself, like I’m picking it up too much. Twitter is not there’s nothing left at the bottom of this Twitter bucket that I just said. It’s a black and white and it turns down like the attractiveness of the phone because it’s not. I mean, so much of the phone’s attraction is like it’s colors, it’s sparkling, it’s a lot of things. And so when it’s in like grayscale, black and white, then it’s just kind of like it’s not as addictive.

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Kia Miakka: And I definitely I have to cut myself off. I don’t have my finger on the pulse of like all the Internet happenings, but I super love going on Twitter and being like, I don’t know anything about this. Let me just dig into this random like, you know, when like everyone online is talking about some random thing that I know nothing about, I’m like, happy to just sort of like, dig around, try to get to the kernel of, like the. A video that people are talking about and be like, All right, cool. It’s like eavesdropping in the cafeteria. That’s how I feel about most of like the Internet and specifically Twitter, which has the most addictive qualities to me.

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Speaker 1: For the record, though, everyone needs to know that Kira is definitely one of them. Like she is definitely the most online, like the most Internet savvy, like on her team.

Kia Miakka: Which isn’t saying much. I will. I will dip my toe in. I’m not a prolific poster at all, but I love to lurk. I’m a lurk. Oh.

Rachel Hampton: I feel like lurkers always have the best of both worlds and that they are not necessarily being perceived, but they are seeing everything that’s happening so you don’t have to worry about being caught up in the drama, but you will be caught up with the drama.

Kia Miakka: I mean, as someone who loves to eavesdrop and be nosy, it’s my favorite space to be in. I’m just like digging in deep to somebody else’s life. No consequences.

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Rachel Hampton: And then you became a journalist.

Kia Miakka: As a person. And I get paid to do it now.

Speaker 1: Right? Yeah. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

Rachel Hampton: So, actually, speaking of getting paid to do it, that’s kind of a perfect segue way into my next question. What is it been like taking over, like, an already established podcast?

Kia Miakka: You know, I would say it was unnerving at first, but also really exciting, I think, to like, for me personally, as someone who loved the show from day one, you know, like just had been listening to it, it was like my special little audio medicine, especially those earlier seasons where they talked a lot. Like it was basically like self-help, which I love as a genre.

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Kia Miakka: So I was super into the podcast from Jump, and then I think to get the opportunity to lead it in this way has been like such a massive learning experience and blessing and it’s been exciting and I’ve been exposed to so many different things. And also it’s a lot of pressure. You know, people love this show and have a lot of ideas, but it’s also been really gratifying, I think, to be like, okay, people really love this show. I really love this show. Can I show up as myself? Which is different from what the hosts were like, and will people stay around for that type of stuff? You know, and I think for the majority, it has been like a really positive thing. And yeah, it’s it definitely it’s not without its challenges, but also extremely rewarding just to be like, Oh, this thing I loved and now I help make it.

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Speaker 1: It’s really nice.

Rachel Hampton: Yeah. So tell me how exactly this takeover happened.

Speaker 1: So basically what happened was the host decided to leave.

Kia Miakka: And bear in mind, this is summer 2020.

Speaker 1: And basically, like, I think for a little. Bit. We all thought that that was it for the show. Like, that’s what I thought. This wasn’t like officially, like we were just kind of like in this uncertain time, like we just had no idea it was going on. I thought my Invisibilia chapter was over because I’d been at the show, you know, starting from the second year that it was, you know, in season. And then somebody named Kia Miakka Natisse calls me up and I will never forget it. I was in the backyard of my old house in West Philly, which is a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny backyard. And Keir, just like you were basically like, I think that we should save the show. I think you and me should co-host, and here’s why.

Speaker 1: And I just remember, like, the idea had never occurred to me that like me personally, like I would ever be a host, like I think of myself mainly as a producer reporter, and to even, like, think about hosting Invisibilia like, I just like it was such a wild idea to me. And so I was just like tongue tied and just kind of like you’re, you’re crazy. Like, yeah.

Kia Miakka: And it was like, not for nothing. It was, it was a crazy idea, like, but it was just that time, like 20 summer, 2020 was like, anything could happen. You better know how to dance. Like, that’s how I felt about it was just like, things are falling apart. But if you’re smart, you can learn how to put them back together. And so that’s what I saw happening here was just like, it’s falling apart. And I mean, blessedly for time, the version where I’m the main character because it’s like you should hear all the different versions of this story where someone else was like. And then I thought, so, you know, I think it was in the air. And so I was kind of writing that wave of like, we’re just in a moment where this opportunity is more feasible.

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Speaker 1: But like I will say, like for me as like, yes, it was in the air, like lots of people were like maybe thinking about it, etc., etc.. I hadn’t really thought about it. And you just like gave me this like, you know, those like speeches in those Hallmark movies where, you know, like the high school coach is like the team is like down 30 points on the football field and then the coach like, gives like a speech gassing up like you gave me, like I have I had never been gassed up like that before. But everyone it was it was incredible to just and also for us to do that with each other like that was what it felt like.

Kia Miakka: We worked together for a year. Yeah. Yeah. It was a lot of just like, let’s go for it energy where it’s like the worst they could say is now.

Speaker 1: Yeah, let’s do it. Let’s trust in each other and our team like, but not for nothing. Like there are. There’s a whole team of producers that were part of this effort and we like pitched, you know, the exact that MPR put together this PowerPoint while we were also holding down, you know, we were working on other shows at the time because our show was on hiatus and then yeah, and then we gave the saying, Yeah, that gave the pitch deck. And then Anya gunmen I’ll never forget. She like, cried at the end of it programming.

Kia Miakka: Yeah, she was just like.

Rachel Hampton: You know, I always say.

Kia Miakka: It’s all about timing and this is just like really great timing. And I think she was really glad to have two people come up with a solution and like, have the energy around it of like, this thing doesn’t have to go away. We’re all really passionate about it and we want to keep it going.

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Rachel Hampton: So yeah, that’s really exciting. I’m picturing like a Friday Night Lights moment of this like inspirational speech and it’s really like it’s getting me. I’m really inspired, but it is time for us to take a short break. When we come back, I will still be joined by Keanu away and we will be talking all about their relationships with the Internet.

Rachel Hampton: And we’re back with Kia Miakka Natisse and Yahya Shah, the host of Invisibilia. And there’s actually a question I’ve been wanting to ask other podcast host for a while. So Netflix’s Bling Ring documentary, which we talked about on a recent episode, really good. Since you have like in this early like arts moment, this overlap of like reality television and like gossip websites and how that closed the gap between celebrities and individuals. And I think about that a lot with like influencers and how much ownership people feel over like influencers and how podcasters in some way because so many are by influencers, end up falling into the same trap. Like, I think consumers can’t quite tell the difference between them.

Speaker 1: Right. Because the internet has this flattening effect. Exactly. Like, exactly. Just like flattens contacts and you’re just like on the same phone, the same device, the same computer interacting with all these different people.

Rachel Hampton: Exactly. And I feel like media companies even promote that, especially with women or people of color, where there’s this almost expectation that we divulge more of our lives like our our are expertises in our experience. And I feel like the show Invisibilia feels a lot more personal since you took over. And I’m curious as to whether that is like a conscious choice you’re made or if that’s just like something you guys were interested in or if there was like external pressure.

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Speaker 1: That’s interesting. There was no external pressure. We get to make whatever we’re interested in making, basically, which is like amazing and feels so special and such a privilege. I will say this, I think like for aesthetic reasons, Keith and I are really interested in authenticity, you know? So like for lots of reasons beyond aesthetic too, but for sonic aesthetic reasons, I think like we were interested in bringing more conversation to the show and also just like being people who interact with each other in these stories and are telling each other stories that in our intros to stories like why we’re interested in and in sharing this with our audience.

Speaker 1: I don’t know. I just find myself more interested in listening to those kinds of narrative podcasts myself. Like I find the really stiff kind of like at a distance, like we’re going to like, pretend there’s this artifice of like, I’m not a person and I’m just telling you story and it doesn’t feel alive to me. And I think that that’s something that we were kind of interested in is like injecting more, I don’t know, just like life and weirdness and just like spontaneity into these very, very polished stories that that was kind of like the style before.

Kia Miakka: I mean, I hear you on the whole, like you have to offer up yourself. You know, I think the way I see it is a little bit different in that expertise is always changing. You know, it’s like one day it’ll be a study that says X, and then two years later, that study will be refuted. And so I am interested in like the experience show as the form of knowledge that we uphold. Because even though your understanding of an experience might change, what happened in the experience will not, you know. And so in some ways, like I’m interested in that intimacy.

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Kia Miakka: And I think also from another perspective of like showing the hand of the maker, you know, I think there’s something that is slightly deceptive in a lot of different documentaries or news features where we present a story as if this is the way it is and you never, like reveal the fact until the credits that it’s like it’s 50 people who helped shape this thing and this particular person had this particular aspect that they really wanted to highlight for their own personal reasons.

Kia Miakka: And so we never get exposed to the reality of what it means to make work, which is it’s always influenced by the maker. There is never like you have to account for. It’s not just the measurement, you have to account for the measure. And so I think a lot of times in the work that I’m doing, it’s like I want people to know that this is coming from my perspective. I don’t want to pretend that I am a voice of God on high. Who knows this knowledge. It’s like now I’m a regular person. I’m trying to figure this stuff out just like you, you know? And to me, for me personally, that builds trust with the audience, which is something I’m really invested in.

Kia Miakka: I never want an audience to think I’m an authority. That’s not how I see myself, and that’s not really how I want to move to space. But I do want them to feel like I’m being honest with them. I’m giving them as much information as I think is appropriate, but may be more information out there. But you know that my hand is on it. And so that can help maybe differentiate from a place of like this is. Exactly. What it is, but instead it’s this is how Kieth sees it and that feels more honest to me than being like, I’ve got the like I just I would never be comfortable personally saying like, I know all the things, it’s like I just can’t.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and just to like pick up on something you said Kya. Like, I do think this changing notion of expertise. Like, I think that was in our pitch deck that we were interested in telling stories that featured different kinds of experts, not just people with PhDs, not just people who wrote books, like not just people from the Ivory Tower. Like this season, I think like in all the seasons of Invisibilia 2.0, we have a bunch of experts that have expertise from years of experience living in a particular world or doing a particular craft or thing. And so I think it’s like almost baked into, yeah, like political, I don’t know, philosophy of like what we’re trying to do. Yeah.

Rachel Hampton: Now they make a lot of sense getting into kind of like the way I’ll think about this show. I feel like invisibility shows like The Invisible Forces at play and one of them that obviously I think about a lot is the Internet and these kind of like guiding hands of social media algorithms that we know are there. We don’t really know how they work for a lot of different reasons, but we still refer to them almost lovingly, like the idea of like the tic tac algorithm knows me so well is something that I run into a lot. And while a lot of y’all’s episodes aren’t like Internet specific, the Internet almost feels like a silent character in a lot of y’all’s episodes. And so I’m really curious as to how y’all conceptualize the Internet as like one of these invisible forces in our lives as you’re thinking about episodes.

Speaker 1: That’s such an interesting question. Can I buy us some time? But also, I’m actually really interested. Can you like, say more about like, can you give an example of like, yeah, an episode of like a time when you saw the Internet is like the silent character they want to. Yeah.

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Rachel Hampton: So I was listening for the episode about power allergies and a lot of the way that your expert talked about like power and the way people think about it now or like the discourse around how women think about power, it felt very adjacent to like the kind of girlboss geeky gaslight like thing that’s going on right now. And so a lot of the kind of things that y’all reference really, I’m like kind of immediately thinking of like, Oh, this is how this is playing out on the Internet. Like, this is like, it almost is like a feedback loop to me.

Rachel Hampton: And then queer episode about the black free diver I was thinking about. I was thinking about the Little Mermaid discourse where I was just like, these spaces where we don’t belong. Like, obviously it’s the taking over a Disney franchise, but it’s also like the imagery of black people in water is so foreign to a lot of people. And so all of this was kind of playing out as I was listening to these episodes, and I was just thinking like. It’s not like you’re mentioning Instagram or Twitter or like TikTok, like in every single episode, but it almost feels like it’s there.

Kia Miakka: I love that. I mean, I’m like, You’re giving us mad content ideas. I’m like, You’re absolutely right. We’ve never really thought about the Internet, But you’re right. It’s invisible. It’s everywhere. It’s like this ever present thing that I think can, like, we can get lost in ourselves. And so, I mean, I appreciate you just like reflecting that back to our show of like, that’s how you see us. Yeah. And definitely gives me a lot to think about because it’s an immense of part of the work that we do down to, you know, the ability to work remotely like it’s everywhere. And it is so because it’s everywhere, it makes it hard to examine because it’s like I actually have a fantasy. This is a new fantasy that’s developed for me related to my phone addiction, which is at some point next year I’m going to get a dumb phone.

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Speaker 1: Really and just try it.

Kia Miakka: Just try it for a month and just like at least experience what it was like when the Internet was localized to a computer that was in a location. You know, it wasn’t like constantly in my pocket. It’s like if you want to go online, you have to go. I’m like, I kind of miss that distance between myself and the Internet of like, not always just being like, it’s always there. And it kind of feels like a nasty addiction sometimes.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Just to echo what Ki is, I feel like you have pointed out a blind spot for us actually, that I am going to be thinking about a lot after this conversation because, I mean.

Rachel Hampton: It’s so existential crisis.

Speaker 1: We love it.

Kia Miakka: We love existential crises.

Speaker 1: We do. We do that. Actually. We’re so comfortable in that space. But but actually, like because we do think we have like a gut check list of questions we really think about, like what are like systems at play that are really critical to mention in this story? Does it is it like things like that and I like the Internet is not on there, but like race, gender, like all these other like huge systems that we really care about surfacing and being really strategic and smart about when we tell our stories are there. So like, I feel like we have something to bring about our team meeting next week perhaps.

Rachel Hampton: Wow. Oh, I want to change the world.

Kia Miakka: Welcome, welcome. We’ll give you a producer credit.

Rachel Hampton: If I’m just spreading producer credits across the world, that’s all I ever want. I always want to just be a friend of the show. Like the someone people mentioned. They’re just like our friend Rachel. And I’m like, That’s me.

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Kia Miakka: I love it.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Rachel Hampton: That was actually kind of my last question.

Kia Miakka: That was fast and fun.

Speaker 1: Yeah, no is great.

Rachel Hampton: I mean, do you have anything else I want to talk about? Do you have any burning questions about the Internet?

Kia Miakka: No, I actually it’s funny, as we were sitting here and it’s like it’s Internet show, you talk about Internet things and I remember this thing that I’ve recently learned that is just like burning on my chest and I feel like this is the perfect place to unload it because I can’t tweet about it because my friend follows me and I’m pretty sure I would get in trouble. And I’m like, This is too much good information. Have you heard of being a big pickup artists like an Instagram pickup artist? Do you know anything about these strategies?

Rachel Hampton: Same, or.

Kia Miakka: Do we have time? I mean, it’s really easy to see me in a spiral because my friend has taught me about her friend’s methodology of using Instagram to to shop for dates. And let me just break it down for you really, really quickly. So here’s her strategy. One, you find someone who you might be attracted to think is a decent person, but maybe they’re not available or you don’t want to date that person. You go through the people they follow.

Speaker 1: Brilliant.

Kia Miakka: Because they now you’re in the network, you’re in the network. You can really you could see who’s cute, who’s who’s not, where you feel and who’s not. Who Do you have things in common with them? Yeah. You find someone you like, you reply to a story, you do not do a DM slide, you reply to a story because if you do a DM slide and you’re not on their friends list, they might get centered. So you know, like the third place where no one ever checks. But if you.

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Speaker 1: Do this is.

Kia Miakka: Literally I have been like, just like who really is going.

Speaker 1: Through. Yeah, this has been a B test. Yes.

Rachel Hampton: Yeah I.

Kia Miakka: Have. But the final the piece de resistance is to make a collection, which I have never done on Instagram, but she make a collection of the accounts that you want to like shop through. You can just save them all to an IG collection so you can keep I mean it was really it’s pick up artist level skill and mastery.

Speaker 1: Or just efficient and Yeah smart smart leader it’s.

Kia Miakka: It’s it’s a lot but it has just been burning me up that to have this information I have tried it slightly I don’t know if I’m really. Built for this world. But I am like so admiring of this system that she’s created. And then like, she passed it on to my friend who passed on to me. And now I’m going to put it on this podcast. So the whole world. Wow.

Speaker 1: I think it needs to be a guest.

Rachel Hampton: No, she needs to start a podcast about this. This reminds me of this like conversations you saw recently where someone was talking about how they get their meal paid for, which is they just go to an expensive spot. Yeah. And they’re like, I’m going to go to the spot whether I know someone there and not just make eye contact with whoever’s there by themselves. And by the end of it, I can usually get my meal paid for. And it started off this entire discourse about the ways in which, like the tactics of sex workers are being reframed and like repackaged in the Internet era. And this kind of reminds me.

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Kia Miakka: That’s why I say it’s a pick up artistry thing. It’s like actually when I got to like the info about creating a collection, it gave me a slight ick feeling because it reminded me of like when men compile like lists of women or like, I’m sure you remember the group chat. There was some thing going around like men are on big group chats and they’re just sharing your nudes. It just kind of reminds me of that. So that’s something like it’s slightly icky, but it is also like it’s pick up artistry. Everyone has their own methodologies. I’m not going to judge, but it is also like a gender reversal thing of like, well, because a woman is doing this, I don’t know.

Rachel Hampton: I respect the hustle.

Speaker 1: Yeah, seriously, seriously, I’m in the vein of random other internet things that I want to get off my chest. I haven’t actually. Q Yeah.

Rachel Hampton: We’re going to make that in this segment. Internet confessional.

Speaker 1: Okay. So I have a problem where you remember how like reply all had like email forgiveness day. I feel like in case you missed it, can you invent a tweet forgiveness day where you are allowed to tweet tweets that are no longer relevant to the current because everything moves so fast. It’s too fast for me. I’m slow, I’m a slow brained person. And so like by the time I like, think of a tweet that I actually would like to share. It’s like the moments passed. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Yes. And so that is my my question for, like, an Internet podcast. That I know.

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Rachel Hampton: I can do that.

Speaker 1: Well, to take on. For me. Yeah. A personal.

Kia Miakka: Holiday.

Rachel Hampton: I mean, it may be funny just to have people send in what they would want to be forgiven. Just like, what is the tweet? You would like to be.

Speaker 1: Forgiven.

Rachel Hampton: On this day.

Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. That’s a good idea. Yeah.

Rachel Hampton: Wow. But I know exactly what you mean. Where it’s like, ah, it’s. I have the kind of similar issue where I’ll tweet something and then think of a better version of the tweet like 30 minutes later. And I’m like, Oh, I just waited.

Speaker 1: But but even I feel like it’s like. Like for me, it’s like, be obliga. It’s not so much like tweets that I feel like are clever or whatever. It’s like. Like the obligatory category of tweets that I feel like to be a good Twitter citizen to like colleagues and friends. But I’m just like, so slow that by the time it’s like, out. No, it’s like already way months past the launch, I’m like, Oh, I never did that. I never tweeted the thing that I wanted to do. You know, I sound like an old person, right?

Kia Miakka: I’m going to never.

Rachel Hampton: Purposefully, benevolently forgive you and say that if you want to tweet something six months after someone’s launch, I feel like they’d appreciate it. They’d be like, You’re re-upping, everyone’s forgotten.

Kia Miakka: Yes, yes, yes. I like the long tail of marketing.

Rachel Hampton: Exactly. Exactly. You have that second wave of marketing that all the publishers want you personally.

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Speaker 1: Wow. I feel forgiven. I feel released. Thank you. Wow.

Rachel Hampton: Wow. I’m so glad the Internet confessional have come. We’re going to keep you. I’ve given you some stuff. You’re giving me some stuff.

Speaker 1: The best interviews. Yeah. Friends of the bad now? Yeah. Yes.

Rachel Hampton: Well, thank you so much for coming on.

Speaker 1: Thank you for having us. This was so fun.

Kia Miakka: Yes. Thank you for letting me unburden myself. I feel so much better.

Rachel Hampton: But once again, that was Kia Miakka Natisse and José Shah, the host of Invisibilia. You can catch them on every single Friday for this season on Invisibilia. All right, that is the show. I will be back in your feed on Saturdays, so please subscribe. It is the best way to never miss an episode, to never miss Internet confessional. Feel free to send in your internet confessionals. Please leave a rating and review an app or Spotify and tell your friends about us. You can follow us on Twitter. I see why my underscore pod, which is where you can dismiss your Internet confessionals and you can also always drop us a note if you find my at Slate.com. I see how I am.

Rachel Hampton: I was produced by Daniel Schroeder and me. Rachel Hampton Daisy Rosario is a senior supervising producer and at least Montgomery asleep VP of audio. See you are mine or not. It is funny because right before we started I was like, We’ve never lost an audio file before, but it’s never going to happen. And both Daniel and Daisy were like, Shut. Oh.

Speaker 1: That’s just like calling upon the of God to smite us.