Slate Spoiler Specials: It: Chapter Two

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S1: Something happens to you when you leave this time. Father wave. He’s here it all gets. He made a nose. If it ever comes back it will come back. You Canada let it happen again.

S2: Hello and welcome to another slate Spoiler Special. Today we are going to discuss it.

S3: Chapter 2 the sequel to it now. Chapter one directed by Andy Machete. I’m joined today by Jack Hamilton who is Slate’s pop critic and an assistant professor of American and media studies at the University of Virginia. Hello Jack.

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S4: Hey Jeff. How’s it going. Thanks for having me.

S2: You’re welcome.

S3: And I’m also joined by a former Slate staffer who I am delighted to see in the studio today Laura Bradley who is now Hollywood writer at Vanity Fair. Hi Laura. Hi.

S2: Good to be back although I’m leading us in today. I’m going to turn things over to you Jack because I already cannot remember what happens in this three hour movie and Jack as you all will learn as our resident it scholar is quite familiar with both the book and now has seen the movie more recently than we have. The first thing though what we should do before I turn it over is just we do the baseline thing we talk about what we thought of the movie. Why don’t I start with you Laura.

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S5: It was so long.

S6: That’s that my primary my primary thought especially now having seen it a couple weeks ago and also feeling the plot points slowly dripping out of my brain is that I remember how long it was and I remember that the ending made me think that there’s really very few ways to make that compelling on screen.

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S7: Yes. Determined to myself. And we’ll let Jack go at last because I feel like he’s going to have the most thoughts. My primary thing was like it was I actually didn’t think it for all that long for most of it. But then when they did another thing where they broke them all apart in four separate subplots again for a second time where they were all like fighting it for like another five minutes each individually before they got back into the actual battle. I was just like that wasn’t thrilling for you. At some point at some point you just have to. I mean they already took a ton of stuff out of the book. I didn’t understand why they couldn’t just you know just kill your dog is a little bit. Maybe I did not think it was very good. I didn’t love the original movie either. I thought that it was somewhat scary and relatively competently made and the kids were charming kind of like this Puerto Stranger Things crew. But I didn’t think I didn’t think the movie was particularly I know that one of them is literally from Stranger Things I think. But I didn’t. Yeah I thought it was fine. But this new one I just thought was oppressively long and oppressively devoted to random asides that don’t make sense in the movie that perhaps did in the novel. What did you think Jack.

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S8: Well I saw the movie last night so it’s quite properly freshest in my mind. And yeah as I’ll get to later.

S9: I’ve read the book a lot but I actually went in with very low expectations because I’d read a bunch of reviews which were pretty negative. And I actually didn’t think it was that bad.

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S8: I mean it was way too long but I was expecting it to be I think more sort of incoherent and just generally maybe incompetent. That’s sort of what I’d read like sort of glean from some of the reviews but I actually found like particularly the middle part to be like very scary.

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S10: I definitely think it got way too long and edited a bit off more than it could chew and I think Jeff you’re right that like there’s just they should have taken a more kind of rigorous axe to parts of the book that just they just didn’t translate it to this to this version. But I honestly like I was expecting to like it to have it be a real ordeal or sitting through this three hour movie and maybe it’s just because the sort of original material has this weird sentimental place in my heart. But I was pretty well entertained for the for the for the full three hours and if anything I could’ve lost about half an hour.

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S7: I tend to agree. I did not think it was unwatchable mostly I was the exception. Should we just start at the beginning of the movie obviously at the beginning of the movie because that I do think was unwatchable and have a lot of problems with. But I’m going to keep to my word and turn into you Jack because I truly after that scene can’t even remember what comes after. So let’s start at the beginning.

S9: Yeah. So I read your piece which was which was great about that that scene and how sort of awkwardly and yeah kind of offensively I think it fits within the film.

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S11: So the opening scene of the movie is basically a pretty graphically rendered hate crime that is in the novel and is a big moment in the novel.

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S12: But so the two main probably a lot of people know this but the two main differences that have happened in the adaptation of the book for these two films is the first one is that in the book the childhood sequences and the adulthood sequences are narratively intertwined. So it jumps back and forth rather than being a part 1 and Part Two. And the other big difference is that the book is the childhood sequences of the book are set in the mid to late 1950s and. And the adult sequences are in the mid 1980s. And I kind of feel like those things like are like a lot of the awkwardness is just sort of things that really really don’t work in the movie can kind of be drawn back to those two things like. I personally think that in the book the sort of Adrian melon murder which Jeff as you point out is based on a real thing are real events that King like adapted really quite directly and incorporated into the book. It doesn’t land as sort of like there’s a way that in the movie it just feels kind of exploitative. In the book that sequence happens immediately after the murder of Georgie Dan bro that opens the first movie. So it’s these sort of twin horrors that are kind of juxtaposed with one another as opposed to in this movie where it just feels like it comes out of nowhere and Sarah serves no purpose for the rest of the film really.

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S9: And yeah I mean that’s like I do think that there’s a lot of yeah for me a lot of the issues with the film were the things that they decided to keep in and to a certain degree I can understand why they kept that in I think if they had left it out there also would have been criticism of like hey there’s this like really prominent hate crime in the book that’s like this really wrenching scene and like the movie just decides to ignore that. Like I could definitely see some like headlines about that at the same time like I think you were right in your article that like it should have been just one of the things that they left out because they did a terrible job with it. And to me I think yeah. Part of it is just that the choices that they made in terms of what they kept and what they left out and then what they added were really strange and now sounding very very negative on this movie. Which I which again I did I did mostly kind of enjoy but obviously I don’t as I mentioned before I think I’ve read this book something like I think I tried to count.

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S10: I wrote an article about this for Slate a couple of years ago when the first movie came out.

S11: I think I think I’ve read it six times over the course of it’s probably my favorite novel which is kind of an insane thing to admit and might get me fired from my professor job.

S10: Yeah. No but it is it’s this weird book I mean I read it when I was first read it when I was about 12 I think and it just was I was so taken with it. It’s one of the only books that I’ve read the whole book. And then just immediately came back and it went back to the first page and read the whole thing again which has kind of been saying that since it’s eleven hundred pages or something like that. Yeah. But I don’t know I just. So it’s hard for me to sort of distance my experience watching the film from how how well versed I am with the source material and also sort of weirdly emotionally invested in it.

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S2: I mean that makes sense. I think typically what happens in the scene because I suspect a lot of our listeners today will be people who have absolutely no intention of watching it Chapter 2. I think a lot of people listen some of the horror episodes of the show which I’m happy to know it happens but they have no intention of actually sitting through it.

S13: So it actually happens in the scene as that there’s a couple of young men in Adrian Mallon is the main one and I forget the other guy’s name and they’re at a town fair in Derry which is sort of one of King’s towns and they kiss and lots of local teenagers notice them kissing and then there’s words exchanged a very weird joke about Meg Ryan’s hair that I don’t understand at all.

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S2: Really like no one laughed and I was like I came and have better jokes than that. And then they the teenagers brutally beat them and they throw an asthmatic one who is beat up the worst because he fights back into a creek and then Pennywise jumps out and starts eating him. And it is a very disturbing sequence and I think it is fine. I mean it’s an it movie. The last movie you opened with a child’s arm being bitten off. I think it’s totally reasonable that that happens but also like like Jack was saying it’s based on a real murder in King’s hometown that happened two years before the original novel was released it obviously affected King the treatment in the book is long and extensive and enrich I think considering that it is sort of like a side plot in a way. And then in the movie it’s just sort of as Jack said out of nowhere. And it’s just extremely brutal and graphic depiction that I think is kind of irresponsible given that they don’t export at all. And then I really feel in the movie that it’s used for shock value. I don’t think that was the intention. I think the filmmakers are sincere in trying to adapt. But I just I just thought it was an egregious miscalculation. What did you think Laura.

S5: I mean I went back and forth on it. Overall I found it by far more horrifying than anything that came after Sarah. And it’s one of the very few. I mean it was really graphic in a way. You don’t often see in it just it stuck with me more than probably any image from the film. And the thing that I kept coming back to was I have a feeling the intention was to sort of really play the real life work that we do to each other. Right yeah.

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S14: That’s what the filmmakers have said is right. And I think that’s fine.

S5: But then if you’re going to do that it feels very weird that as you say it pretty much disappeared as quickly as it appeared. It’s you know mentioned in passing a couple times but seems to have very little influence over the proceedings afterword. So if you’re going to sort of play that up is the angle and do a very graphic depiction to drive it home. It does seem a little undercooked to then do that. And then just have no just have no reflection afterword.

S15: Yeah there is one possible plot echo and character changing one of the characters played by Bill Hader which I think we can discuss when we get to it. And I suspect I have no way of proving it but I suspect that it was their attempt to like take care of this problem although they’ve spun it differently in the press. We don’t need to dwell on the scene but it is quite brutal and if you are paying to see the movie and you’re the sort of person who is particularly sensitive to that kind of violence I would recommend not watching it definitely caught me off guard. I did not know about it before I saw the movie or Yeah. So I didn’t I. I think we we talked a little before we started recording which we were not allowed to do and we shouldn’t have. But basically Jack is the only one who’s read the book law or maybe read it in high school.

S5: I read it in high school and remember very little of it.

S15: Yeah. And I don’t know that I ever even tried it seems so on. I’m not a Stephen King they complete us by any means. All right Jack take us past that terrible moment into the rest of this very long movie.

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S11: Yeah. So I mean the movie basically is the the conceit is that you know every twenty seven years in dairy this sort of rash of killings happens there was this sort of evil that is living there at the end of the last movie The children in the late 80s have made a pact that they will return all this is very much from the book and then yeah the killings start again. Again first the first sort of displayed by that brutal sequence so we were just discussing.

S16: But then similarly to the first film children start disappearing things like that. And yes the losers who are all grown up now and are all very successful which is actually an aspect of the book that the book develops a lot in the movie weirdly doesn’t really go into like the significance of the fact that they’re all kind of hyper successful and then they come back to dairy. They’ve also all forgotten what has happened since they were 12 13 years old in the first film.

S11: And so there is a process of kind of remembering again all of this happens like it’s quite brisk in the negative of the movie like this is that again you know with an eleven hundred page book or whatever it is you have a lot more sort of luxury to sort of develop this gradually a lot kind of happens I mean probably inevitably the movie is a little oddly paced I would say but yeah. So they reassemble and now we’re treated to a pretty impressive assemblage of movie stars. You know you’ve got Jessica Chastain and James McAvoy Bill Hader as Jeff mentioned and then a number of other the acting I thought was mostly quite good for you know a good board of film.

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S9: I mean I didn’t find any of it distractedly bad I would say.

S11: And I thought that the the performances that were that I felt like work or somewhat lackluster it felt to me more like a problem of of writing that I think certain of the characters just like the actors were not given nearly enough to do the most notable of those being Mike Hamlin which was probably my biggest problem of the film was the depiction of Mike Hanlin which I can get into later who’s a really really important part of the book and like a really crucial kind of narrative and sort of moral center through the movie just like kind of ignores for vast vast portions of it which is particularly weird because he’s like the only character of color in the loser’s club. He’s he’s a black man and the film seems to. Both films seem to have no idea what to do with the kind of racial aspects of his dynamic within the town which is something that the books really really emphasize that he’s been the victim of really really vicious racism again part of this is because the first books are set at the childhood part of the book it’s in the 1950s you know whereas I think maybe the filmmakers felt a little awkward about doing that in nineteen eighty nine. You know that you would have a black character who was just like relentlessly subjected a black child character who was relentlessly subjected to sort of racial harassment. But yeah.

S17: So then sorry that oh we can write about well why don’t we let Laura take us into this dinner. And what happens right before the dinner. Do you remember a certain character does not show up to the dinner.

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S6: Yes. Dan who. So leading up to the dinner essentially everybody gets their phone call from Mike Hanlin saying hey remember this terrible thing that happened to all of us. Well it’s happening again. You need to come back. We made this pact and having to remind people that they made this pact at all and that yes they really do need to come back. So you’ve got Bill Hader playing Richie. He’s a comedian. He vomits upon getting this phone call and then goes and bombs. So everybody has their various reactions. And for one stand he actually commits suicide he kills himself. So the entire group reunites at the restaurant for a scene that for me was one of the ones that I instantly remembered from the mini series. Because I believe that was actually the moment I watch. I ended up seeing the mini series during some sort of field trip I think in middle school.

S18: And I believe that was the exact scene that I walked in for and then proceeded to be very impressed by the rest of the movie but very intrigued.

S14: Yeah I watched that scene after this too and it’s quite lovingly done in both movies. It is. Yeah. Especially in this movie are probably worth unpacking as there’s quite a bit of them. Yeah. But that scene was fun.

S5: I thought that scene was one of the ones I enjoyed the most actually just in terms of the ways that they sort of followed up the effects and it felt it felt very faithful to it. You know just the story in the mini series as I remembered it just having these the scenes felt very similar more similar than many of the other scenes between the two sort of visual adaptations that we’ve gotten. But anyway. So the whole group is wondering why Stan is not there. They don’t know. It’s not until after they’ve been completely scared out of their minds in the restaurant and trashed the entire place much to the chagrin of the poor waitress who comes and discovers the scene. It’s not until afterward that they leave the restaurant and then I believe get a phone call or they call.

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S7: I think they call stands wave and there’s like there’s fortune cookies tell them that his.

S19: That’s right. Yeah.

S5: The fortune the fortune cookies there’s little paper each fortune they all add up to say that Stan has died. It said something about cutting I think couldn’t make the cut or something.

S19: Yes. Eric couldn’t make the cut. Couldn’t read it. Yeah. Yeah that’s right. Yes.

S5: It’s something like that. And so then they leave the restaurant call I believe stands wife and find out what happened. And then everybody gets various degrees of freaked out and most of them leave saying you know understandably screw this why on earth would I engage with this again.

S20: Yes. And before we move on I do want to ask Jack you’ve reference why is it that it’s significant that they’re successful.

S11: So part of the thing in the book is basically about at least as I recall it’s been it’s been a little while since I read about their success is one of the things that has keeping them away from dairy like one of the weird things that the movie does is the movie really does leans hard on the idea that penny wise or whatever wants wants them to come back whereas the movie the book is like a little less direct about that.

S4: And the idea is that like they’ve all become extremely successful much in the way that they’ve all left dairy like that this is sort of this way that their success is actually something that has happened to them to keep them from coming back either it’s something that they have subconsciously done to create these lives for themselves where it allows them to sort of put their experience in the town aside or it is something that has sort of cosmically happened to them that is maybe linked to you know the sort of evil force in dairy to keep them away because there is a. Yeah. That is I mean they are you know who ends up killing Pennywise. Spoiler alert.

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S7: I mean that as it is a spoiler special.

S14: So after that they all kind of start dispersing and there’s a lot of dispersing in this movie. Yeah there is.

S11: They are constantly separating and having their own subplots and I’m trying again I’m like I guess I have similar amnesia to the kids in this movie because I truly don’t even remember what the next thing that happens is I think the next one is when Beverly and this to me was probably the scariest scene in the movie was when Beverly goes to her old apartment Beverly played by Jessica Chastain and meets that very creepy old woman who’s living in this very creepy apartment.

S21: And then she turns into this like naked 15 foot tall leg.

S22: Yeah.

S11: Again the special effects are pretty we’re pretty wild. But that was a sequence that I thought was genuinely very scary and genuinely felt very very Stephen King.

S20: Yeah. I quite liked that sequence too.

S2: They kind of made an entire trailer out of it that I saw on 13 times in theaters before I saw this movie which took a little bit of the wind out of the sails for me. But I did. I did think it was very fun. I actually you can I ask you Laura maybe now’s a good time to talk about the fact that Jessica Chastain is in this movie Jessica Chastain is a of all the actors in the movie I would say probably the most accomplished she’s sort of a Broadway egghead. That’s me and I would say she’s also I mean obviously she’s also a movie star but she’s out sort of an outspoken advocate for actresses and also the depiction of sexual assault on film and this movie basically opens with a scene.

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S17: Also with her and her abusive husband who. My understanding is that a much larger part of the book in this movie is only seems to be in that part and he it’s it’s a sexualized abuse scene where it seems like she’s going to be raped but then she or he’s going to rape her and then he attacks and then she attacks him back and runs away basically and goes to dairy and then she’s in this other like really kind of graphic horror scene that involves her father who is also sexually abused her and it’s like it’s this horror movie that’s sort of the genre thing and I thought it was an interesting choice for her to be in it. What is your sort of read on that.

S5: I mean it’s funny because fans were campaigning for her to be in it from the beginning the minute they saw Sophia Lalas. I believe it’s her name who plays young Beverly and it makes sense. But especially if you’re going to have a character who carries this much emotional weight this much trauma this many very tricky scenes to play it makes sense that the most as you say accomplished performer be that person. So I mean those scenes again were some of the most uncomfortable for me to watch. I mean admittedly I’m the type of person who doesn’t really get scared by horror movies which is always a very obnoxious thing to say but I don’t say that dismissively I still really enjoy them even if I’m not scared what I always come back to is what images I remember. And so the things and it was striking to me that in this movie almost exclusively other than that restaurant scene all of the images that stuck with me were those of violence that actually happens in real life. And I mean it’s always tricky to include scenes like this. And I’m always unsure of how I feel about them. But I mean I did consistently find myself thinking that the cycle of abuse is very real. The domestic violence if you endure it as a young person you’re more likely to end up facing it again later. So I mean overall I thought it was effectively executed if very unpleasant to watch and I’m glad that I think Justin did a really good job with it I agree.

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S17: I mean I think that this those things were handled much better. There’s much more of an arc. It’s like right. As you say it’s much more about sort of the process of victims and survivors often go through.

S5: I understood why it was there to a greater degree I guess is what I’m saying especially because it’s so tied in with her experience of Pennywise. It all makes sense.

S20: Yeah I think that’s right. So Jack I think that a lot of people view it as kind of like lurid horror clown trash basically. For you it’s sort of more seminal text. I mean what is your life like. Well I know I mean I think that that’s I think a lot of people love the book and it’s obvious that I become a fanboy thing almost now. I mean based on the response I got to that thing over and already the email. So why I live in constant. So you I mean do you do you view this as like a really accomplished American drama. Like I mean what is your sort of read on that aspect of this movie depicting quite graphic and intense things you are you referring before to the book’s more robust treatment of race and obviously this is all part of it as a big thing. There’s a lot of different sort of traumas running through this.

S8: Yeah I mean like I mean the book is really interesting. It’s a very interesting and unique book and a lot of ways I mean it’s not like you know it’s not like a perfect novel or like you know it’s like I’ve heard it’s do I have a weird sort of irrational attachment to it because I think the age I was when I read it and just was you know I just was I read so much Stephen King when I was a kid and his books just meant so much to me. It was cool seeing him. He has a cameo in the film too which was kind of kind of cool wearing his like you know ratty old Neil Young t shirt.

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S20: But I thought he was a half good actor totally enjoy.

S8: Yeah yeah yeah yeah totally. It was cool but yeah I mean the book is a lot richer and in that sort of themes it’s able to go into the book is really I think is most effective in its in its depictions of childhood. That’s something that King is really really good at writing and it’s able to do a lot more. It’s it ends up being surprisingly emotionally complex like one of the big differences between the movie and the book is at the end of the movie there’s a sequence where build and bro is talking to Mike and he’s like I’m not forgetting this time and they’re like Yeah we’re not going to forget. And then like the movie kind of ends the book actually ends with them forgetting and they start they start really forgetting everything about each other. Beverly and Ben do end up together at the end of the book. But yeah. And it’s like this really bittersweet thing the book ends basically with Mike’s narration where he’s trying to read he’s trying to write like sort of finish his own book about what happened in Derry and he can’t remember. So stuff like that is it’s done really well there’s also like to come back to this sort of theme of abuse. One of the things the book does that is actually pretty powerful is that a lot of the kids who were killed by the clown are themselves victims of child abuse prior to their their death at the hands of Pennywise. And so there’s this real or they’re just sort of these very marginalized children you know they’re poor they’re sort of outside of the mainstream. So there is this weird kind of conscience that the book has of like these kids are partly being murdered because it’s like no one gives a shit about them you know and like no one is really and this is sort of dairies own indifference to its population. So that’s like handled I think a little bit more sophisticated. Yeah. I mean I don’t think it is some like you know great American novel. I mean I do think it’s probably like King’s most ambitious and accomplished work. I mean his two massive books are this and the stand and each have their own partisans I personally think it is a superior novel to the stand. But yeah I mean it’s like it’s it’s own animal it’s just a completely nuts book and I like it’s just so long and it’s you know it’s this great idea. And then I mean it’s an amazing idea that’s a king and it’s like it’s he’s he’s a genius at coming up with these concepts and then the last like two or three hundred pages of the book are just completely insane. And you either buy into them or you don’t. And for whatever reason. Like when I first read it I was like Hell yeah I’m like going there with you.

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S11: So it’s yeah it’s like. But that’s that too is one of the things that the movie just like. I mean I felt like the last half hour or 45 minutes of the movie just really spiraled into nonsense.

S14: Yeah I tend to feel the same way. So we are we need to move through more of the plot of this thing. There’s so much of it. Yeah. So basically we don’t to not go through everything but there’s that scene with the old woman and which is really just a form of it it turns out our Pennywise I think.

S23: And then there is just a series of smaller scenes where people basically revisit the or is that scene takes place in Beverly’s trial at home and then one by one sort of all the kids have their own little individual scenes while they’re deciding whether or not to stay in town. And I don’t recall what what makes them stay like well how does how did they all come back together.

S24: Do you remember the adults. Yes they all were about to leave kind of and then they all start having various horror things happen that was when.

S25: Well they were about to leave but then it was Bill right. James McAvoy stays in the parking lot with Mike Hanlin. They have that whole conversation in Mike hand was like No you got to come to my house I’ve got this whole legend I’ve got to tell you.

S19: Yeah the kids I’ve been dying I’ve got the legend I’ve got to do.

S14: This is perfect actually because we can explain now the very bizarre. But I thought actually surprisingly coherent mythology and I feel like if I turn this over to you Jack we’re going to get like a real dissertation I a lot more I do it. So come on NEW YOU. WELL YOU CAN. I think you can do it.

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S18: So this scene there at Mike’s house and Mike drugs the whole spate of drugs and literally drugs them which is one of the more bananas moments in this movie. You just casually drugs.

S2: He gives me some sort of like I don’t know what is that normally called. Like it’s some sort of like Ayahuasca.

S14: Yeah exactly. Laughs Yeah. And he wants him to look at this like sort of Native American artifact that explains why why is on Earth and why is penny wise on Earth. Laura you shaking your head.

S18: So those of you who can’t see her as I can I remember that like he like came down to earth like a comet or something right.

S14: So it seems that he’s an alien right. And he was the Native Americans thought that they had read destroyed him and we at that point in the movie we feel like they did but we don’t really understand we don’t wonder why he’s back if they killed him and more importantly I remember wondering if he’s back and this whole thing didn’t work.

S26: Why do we think it’ll work now. That was the question I immediately had like I remember it was like a group ritual where they had to sort of all like chant together or something and then that would like contain him in this weird little cone box thing that they had.

S23: Yes it was a cone box thing and basically Bella’s hallucinating and seeing all this play out like a box or on the box or something and like getting the history maybe a couple hundred years ago or something and it seems that they vanquish him and that’s what they are. That’s basically what they’re gonna try to do again. How do we do with that.

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S27: JACK Yeah. That’s a really weird secret. I mean to be one of the things that’s amazing about this movie is that like some of the weirdest most like bizarre choices are things that aren’t actually from the book like the Native American thing like I was like what’s going on here. Like what is this like. What are you guys introducing. Then like yeah like the artifact which basically is like one of those like Ghostbusters that you know like Ghost trapping it seemed like.

S14: So that’s totally new to the movie.

S27: I mean there isn’t a mythology in the book that’s that’s that’s pretty weird and convoluted but it’s not. MIKE HAMLIN has gone to an Indian tribe and stolen an artifact like that’s like that unless I’m completely blanking on that. Yeah. And there’s not a there’s not a dosing scene so I’m slipping and I said there are there is like a hallucination scene in the book but it’s different. Yeah I mean I don’t know. Like it’s like that was weird but at the same time like I guess I was like whatever like you need some sort of explanation and it’s not like the book the explanation in the book is any less convoluted it’s just sort of differently convoluted.

S7: I see him well somehow after that bill does not even leave a bill maybe perhaps fills a renewed need to stay. Yeah yeah. And at some point they all reconvene together and they even have a conversation I think about not splitting up. But then they start splitting up again.

S6: Yeah I do. I do remember that.

S2: Okay Jack take us take us over the hump here. Where do we go after that. We’re beginning maybe close to halfway through the movie at this point.

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S19: Are we at the part where Bill gets obsessed with the skateboard kid because that guy that I was dating I really came here to talk about a book.

S17: So Bill by the way if we haven’t said as if played by James McAvoy extensively the lead of the movie although he gets it like less screen time and just doesn’t like a lot of the other actors kind of have his lunch I think it’s not as prominent as you would think. So yeah let’s go into the the skateboard boy is sort of his individual trauma obviously he’s meant to be a mirror for Georgie who’s a little boy who’s eaten at the beginning of the first movie and is his little brother who continues to haunt him in this movie Run us through that a little bit. JACK Yeah.

S11: So there’s this sort of skateboard kick kid character who functions in the yeah and the movie as this kind of like Bill having to relive the trauma in his own sort of blaming himself for his brother dying in the first movie and then there’s this kind of extended sequence where Bill goes into a funhouse a little on the nose.

S4: Running around trying to find this kid because the kids trapped in the Fun House and Pennywise is in the Fun House and sort of clown character. And then there is it’s like pretty terrifying sequence of yeah the kid getting basically murdered in front of infront of Bill’s eyes.

S28: Although it’s interesting the movie I I would be interested in your thoughts like your guys of sorts.

S11: I was not totally sure how much of that was supposed to be a hallucination versus an act. One of the actual child markers like it’s definitely seemed like like I couldn’t tell whether that was like as opposed to certain other scenes where you’re like oh OK I’m definitely seeing someone get killed by Pennywise. I couldn’t tell if that was like you know pennywise just sort of messing with with Bill’s head. Again that sequence is not in the in the book.

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S2: I I took it to be literal. I didn’t think it was a hallucination maybe it was supposed to be.

S29: I thought that you weren’t really supposed to know. Actually yeah that was kind of I was thinking basically that Bill’s psyche is at this point just getting so fragmented that it’s really hard for him to tell and therefore hard for us to tell. Especially you know the whole funhouse trope I think sort of accentuates that point. What you’re seeing might not actually be what is real and also is true.

S25: It is interesting that at this point I think this is what the third piece of media we’ve gotten this year that includes a scary funhouse. It was in us we had one in Stranger Things and now we have it here like this is really a good year for a terrifying one.

S14: Huh that’s interesting. I agree with you that that sequence is really terrifying. There’s a lot of terrifying child murders in this. The other one’s a little girl. Yeah a lot.

S2: Yeah that’s another one that has no connection to the story that is thrown for fun. There’s a scene where there’s a little girl who’s at a like a baseball game or football or something and Pennywise lures her in because she has a birthmark on her face and under the bleachers yes and makes her think that like he doesn’t have any friends. People make fun of him for being different too and then he eats her. It’s very helpful. It is it is. So that scene was his individual trauma. We already talked about Beverly’s which was sort of revisiting her father’s sexual abuse and kind of dealing with that. Also existing in her adult life for Mike his is that his family burned alive in an apartment fire and the sequence that is so he’s revisiting that at this time too.

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S17: And I can’t I don’t totally understand is the implication that he didn’t bother to say them because they were drug addicts like I was a little bit always confused by that particular what they were trying to imply with that scene.

S29: Yeah I didn’t know that. I think my impression was more that he was traumatized by obviously what happened and then also the way. Wasn’t there a whole thing about the way that it was talked about sort of in the press and among people like Oh your family was like you know crack addicts that died in there or something like that.

S7: Yeah I thought so. Jack what was your read on what was going on there.

S30: Yeah so that was as I sort of teased earlier that that part of the movie really pissed me off because I mean this is like in the book Mike’s family is basic Mike comes from basically the only stable family and he has like a totally loving father and mother but his relationship with his father is like particularly a big part of the book. And like his father’s being this sort of link to this history of racism in Derry and this history of sort of white supremacist violence which the movie just doesn’t really know what to do it still like it but weirdly it’s like move to try to turn Mike into a sort of trauma victim is turning his parents into crack addicts which is just like oh it’s such a racist trope like it’s like like it just so kind of gratuitous and like I I just found it kind of galling that they that they did that and again speaks to just like the fact that I think that they didn’t know how to do that character and how to translate him again. And I think part of it is like how do you translate like in the 1950s 1980s thing into a nineteen eighty nine 2016 thing where it’s like obviously there’s sort of social context of those areas are vastly different but it’s just was like I just kind of couldn’t believe it. Like I just was like That’s so awful. And it’s amazing to me that that was like sort of OK and you know among the screenwriters that no one stopped them and was like wait a minute why are you turning this character who in the book and his family’s situation which in the book is rendered is a very stable and wholesome into this like yeah just complete stereotype.

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S14: That’s awful. I had no idea. Bummer.

S2: So that’s what Mike is doing and one thing we should note about Mike is we haven’t done it yet is that he’s played by as an staffer who is literally the old spice guy. I mean I know that you’re a sports guy Jack. I know and I think he didn’t he used to be like a football player also possibly.

S27: I don’t know actually I don’t know.

S2: I think I saw something like that. I think he may have been an athlete at some point. I think as he he’s a confident actor as it turns out. Now Ben the movie and then the other two kids that we’re dealing with are Eddie who is played by James Brown son and son who is probably most famous as the character Ziggy from season two of the wire but is quite an accomplished actor otherwise. Yeah he is. His story is the most boring I would say this is we’re being kind of maybe get into the Bill Hader thing that’s going on which is very bizarre. So this Eddie in the movie is basically dealing with trauma from his mother like being sad about his mother possibly dying or like something like that. He is also just like sort of like a he’s basically a drama phobe and like a worrywart generally hypochondriac.

S29: Yeah. Yeah I remember in the first movie his mom was portrayed as various sort of overbearing and at times she struck me as borderline abusive. I do remember that.

S2: Yes. And this movie has a really weird joke that I don’t think is in the book about him also marrying like an overweight woman and there’s like weird fat jokes about it.

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S6: This whole movie had a lot of fat phobia that I did not like yeah there was.

S15: It was a really weird thing that they did with it.

S25: It felt like a thing that was probably very endemic to a work from the 80s but that we really didn’t need to carry into a movie made in 2019.

S15: But my understanding is that Eddie did not have relationships in the book is that right Jack.

S27: I know Eddie is married in the book. Oh yes.

S13: I must have misread something. The reason I bring it up is because fans sort of have sort of shipped him and Reggie and have this idea that Eddie is in love with Reggie and they take out some scenes in the miniseries as proof of it. It’s a super sub textual thing but then in this movie he is he is Eddie is clearly heterosexual. I mean seemingly he’s married to a woman but Bill haters character Richie is now a professional comic as we mentioned before all of a sudden in the middle of the movie Adrian Mellen who was the man who was killed at the beginning and the hate crime sort of shows up and I should say that is played by Xavier Dolan who’s the sort of Cuba qua filmmaker who like is quite beloved. And it’s like it was really tempting not to get mad at the fact that he was in it but he like he plays this like slinky zombie who like comes by and says something to or gives him a fire or something and calls him handsome.

S14: And Bill Hader looks kind of horrified and then Pennywise shows up as like a giant statue and then it’s like Pennywise the giant statue is so bizarre I swear to God that this movie just was successful Warner Brothers was like just stole a ton of fucking money out because we really have to like make this like a big blockbuster event sequel. I know it’s a bizarre scene where a giant statue is trying to kill both here and then Pennywise starts alluding to a secret he says there’s a secret that you are keeping from everybody. And I’m thinking this is what he do to you like maybe kill a child himself or something like it seems like something really bad is going on. And it turns out as it becomes clearer and clearer that his secret is that he’s gay. That is the whole secret. And it’s it’s so bizarrely treat and that is totally new. My understanding is that right Jack.

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S9: Yeah it’s completely new and I agree. It was so bizarre just like their handling of it was so just kind of tone deaf and awful.

S14: Yeah it was just it was just like it was just so strange that like. I mean yeah some people do have a lot of problems with their sexuality into mid-life and like it is terrifying for some people the idea of coming out being a comic in Los Angeles and not like a sci piece it’s like a little bit strange but I guess I guess that’s the thing.

S25: Well I mean again it felt to me like something that was you know a lot of this movie its sensibility is if not individual plot points felt very informed by when it was originally created. Right. Even though they’re making up all of these things right they’re making up all these things there’s no reason and again this isn’t even a plot point that existed originally and yet it did feel like it was being treated as though we’re still in the 1980s. It was very confusing to me. And the other thing that I found interesting with the whole Bill Hader plot was as it sort of becomes increasingly obvious what this big horrible secret is. It also felt to me and this could have just been me. But it felt almost like it was being played for suspense. Which friend he had a crush on for a minute. It felt to me like they were implying he had a crush on Stan. That was my initial thought especially the scene I believe it was his bar mitzvah right. Stan bar mitzvah that then Edie. Bill Hader was attending. It felt like there was like a moment there where he was sort of like looking on I don’t know the whole thing just felt very strange to me the way it was handled I agree it was bizarre.

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S2: I agree. And I thought that was the reason that I felt like it was trying to tether it to the opening hate crime because there’s another scene where other teenagers that aren’t the same ones are like kids their age like the bullies are sort of harassing him in a homophobic way like it seems like maybe he has a crush on a boy for a minute.

S14: Yeah and start yelling at him and I like it was like in a video game right an arcade. Yeah it was just so so bizarre. And I was like watching the movie thinking This can’t be what’s really happening and we’ll get to the end hopefully soon. We’re nearly we’re nearly coming having an already I’ve heard what we’re doing okay I think. But in the end they still don’t even really explicitly say they’d like to see if there’s enough that you it’s 100 percent taxed like it’s definitely what’s happening but they don’t. There’s no scene where he’s like guys there’s no scene where he actually says anything out loud about it at all. No. They’re just so strange.

S25: Most we get is him carving into the carving a little. I think it’s the heart with his and his initials right. That’s like the only real confirmation we get that like yes this is it.

S15: And yes it is so weird. Yeah well the reason that he’s carving the initials let’s pop into that. So we’re leaving a lot out in the middle of the movie here. But believe me when I say that there’s this goes on with his various traumas and it’s just it’s just they’re juggling so much and it’s actually sort of impressive from a narrative standpoint that they keep them moving as well as they do. As Jack said before it’s not boring.

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S9: Yeah. And it’s actually it’s reliably pretty scary like I found at least like it until again like probably the last half an hour. So we’re kind of turns into like an act almost like an action movie.

S27: But I did you know like a lot of there like I think he’s a he’s a good horror filmmaker and like I mean we could talk some about the visual effects too which were pretty pretty creative I thought.

S15: I agree. Yeah. No I think machete is good. He’s a director. He’s an Argentine director who also made a movie called Mama which was sort of like a good B. Middle of the road horror movie that was pretty solid. Yeah I agree with you. I don’t I don’t find it that scary. I found him. I find it more disturbing. But I did I certainly find it unnerving. The first movie I thought was scarier. Did you think this one was was worst.

S27: I think I might have been. I actually found this one a little bit scarier. It’s been a while since I watched the first one. Like I definitely thought like this one had a lot of like really well done sort of jump scares which are I’m really susceptible to like it’s like that’s my like that stuff really sets me on edge. And yeah I mean I don’t know like I definitely there were a number of times in this movie where I was like Whoa I am really scared and almost to a point where it’s kind of unpleasant but I mean not that many but definitely a few and I don’t know I think like I’ve read some reviews where they’re like this movie isn’t scary.

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S4: And I’m like I don’t think I like I feel like I don’t know. It definitely scared me at that point.

S23: Yeah I think that that’s legit. It’s like we have this thing called the scaredy scale and it’s broken down where we like. How scary horror movies are and it’s broken into exactly what you’re describing Jack like like jump scare love all like spooky ness like depends on what scares you. I think I definitely jumped a multiple times jumped to my seat to the point where I think like I bumped into the person next to me. I certainly had reactions. I do think it is pretty scary.

S29: Oh just. There was so much I felt like this one had less tension and particularly because of the runtime the longer a movie the longer a horror movie goes the more you run the risk of sort of losing the audience and dulling their nerves is my only thing. Yeah to me like this movie was less scary to me but largely just because we already knew more or less what was going to happen anyway. This is already a sequel and now it’s much longer. And as I think Jack said earlier it’s very strangely paced. We did take away some of the sort of again the tension it just erodes it for me.

S17: Yeah I agree. Then there’s just so many different moods to this movie tries to replicate the whole thing where they’re joking constantly and I kind of like ripping on each night that I didn’t think really worked for the adults the way that it did for the kids particularly when they had the kids come back the kids are in this movie quite a bit in flashbacks and it just reminded me of how charming they were in the first movie and how they really were a good ensemble and in this it’s a great cast I mean shit they really got good people but it’s it just doesn’t work as well. They don’t quite have the chemistry I thought.

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S29: Yeah yeah I do think a lot of the humor especially for Bill Hader his character was also used to establish his sort of rapport with Eddie and I think that might have been why at times it was late on a little thick. I think it was performed well but from a writing standpoint I think it was a little overwritten in terms of just we’ve got to have these people flirting we’ve got to have them.

S25: You know it’s got to like hearken back to when they were kids sitting in their clubhouse like jostling in a hammock like it all felt very to be like see that thing they were doing as kids they’re still doing it now because he’s still in love yeah.

S14: Can I ask you is Hollywood writer at Vanity Fair knows about these things. Someone I saw somewhere that there’s Oscar buzz for Bill Hader for this movie. Is that a real thing.

S18: You know what I’m going to go ahead and say that I have no idea but I kind of hope. I mean I’m not kidding. You know I just want Bellator to have an Oscar. I don’t care how you get. I like Bill Hader for give me a fucking break. Listen as I said I’m not saying I think this movie should be it but if it gets Bill Hader and Oscar let’s get him to eat God I don’t care.

S21: It’s funny. I love Bill Hader but it’s like I feel like that Barry has gotten so much praise and like it’s great like it’s deserved but it’s almost like he’s one of those actors who now like he’s done so much like kind of impressive dramatic work people forget that he’s originally a comedian and it’s like this movie. Yeah I keep seeing his performance people are like oh it’s it’s a scene stealing performance.

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S28: Like who knew he had this type of performance and you’re like he’s a comedian he’s put and he’s playing a comedian Yeah it’s like it’s good but it’s like he’s great but it’s like he could do this in his sleep like I didn’t feel like it was showing me some new side of Bill Hader I think implicit in that conversation is people saying they’re amazed that Bill Hader straight Bill Hader can play like a Reggie.

S25: I like that. I think that’s implicit in what they are saying because otherwise as you say there’s really no argument to be made that he is doing anything we haven’t seen him do before. I honestly think that it’s just one of those bizarre things that people do where it’s like Oh I think that you might be onto something there.

S23: I think it’s still seen as brave to play a gay character like this if you’re an actor of that stature. And I should say Jack I agree with you about Barry. We could have a whole show about Barry the HBO listen Assassin. If the listener doesn’t know OK. I think so the midsection of the movie a lot of things happen. But we need to get into the sewers and I just realized that we totally forgot about Ben. I love that character who who is now played by a Kiwi Australian soap opera actor named Jay Ryan and he’s just like the one who had the biggest glow up and it’s just like absolutely beautiful now and it seems like they all kind of want him or no he’s in love with Beverly.

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S29: He’s still in love with Beverly he’s so in love with her.

S23: My favorite scene of the movie was I don’t remember what part it came and was when they ran out of the scene of the boys carving something into his stomach but now he just has these ridiculous abs and it’s just like a disgusting stunt is having something carved in there you just can’t stop staring at how perfect his body is.

S14: Asked a real juxtaposition Hey so the sewers. So of course at a relatively reasonable point in this movie they go down into the sewers in order to kill it.

S23: Of course it’s under this like really creepy old house that has another lovingly sort of done scene with like more special effects monsters. What is it someone’s head or something comes in.

S9: Yeah. Laughs stands head that stands like a spider a child stands head not adult stance.

S14: Yeah yeah that was rough. And then they go down into the sewer in order to kill Pennywise and a reasonable person might think that the movie is close to ending but like Oh no no. That’s another hour so I now. So to to prevent us from talking for another hour.

S23: Jack we you quickly lead us into what’s going on down there and what the ritual that they’re sort of starting to do is and the whole circumstance.

S27: Yeah. So they do this thing called the ritual of chewed which is in the book like that term but the movie sort of changes up pretty drastically what it kind of entails in a way that like I honestly couldn’t even totally make heads or tails up.

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S21: But it involves it’s weirdly turns into like a labyrinth like the movie labyrinth type thing where they have to tell the thing they’re not afraid of it. You know there’s a part where they’re like lobbing insults at it. Yeah. And I mean for me the weird I mean so they’re down in this thing and it’s like you know you’re getting into. You have like references to like the dead lights and things like that which are which are sort of taken from the book and then the other sort of final confrontation where they’re having to kill Pennywise in this sequence. Eddie he gets killed. He gets killed by. By Penny wise there’s a whole by you know pennywise you think Penny Wise is dead like four times and then he keeps coming back.

S30: I mean I thought like that like the ending to me just felt like I was like Now I just feel like I’m watching like an Avengers movie or something where it’s like the last 30 minutes is just like this incoherent sequence of like things blowing up and like like like it turned into like an sort of again like I said before I like kind of an action movie in this way that just felt tonally really off and it was like it was just way too long.

S8: Yes. And then you know they kill it.

S22: Well so they think that he’ll do it reshaped. Yeah yeah yeah.

S4: They think they killed him and then they then he comes back and kills Eddie and then then they kill him again by shouting insults at him and then they take his heart out and destroy his heart which is that that is true to the to the book and then am I missing anything.

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S23: It’s you know I mean his death is the main thing and that’s sort of when the movie really really taps his card on the bill Hader thing because Bill Hader is very very sad that Eddie is the future Oscar nominee Bill Hader. And then you know basically Yeah that scene the scene was really weird where they eventually do find out how to kill him or get him small enough so they can rip his heart on and stab it or whatever it is that they do where they’re just like yelling and like lobbing insults and making them small literally Benjamin Button.

S18: Yeah.

S25: Engine buttons and like deflates both or our eyes into this little tiny clown baby.

S14: Yeah it is. I found that scene pretty disturbing. Honestly I was kind of like I agree with you that it was in determinable on the whole thing was so long and adventure Z but that part I thought was relatively well rendered.

S11: Yet it was definitely really visually cool. Like I definitely thought like the shrinking Pennywise and like yeah that was that was I thought well done. Although I did was like I was like wait a minute like this is like this like millennia old evil that’s been like lurking between but below the streets of Derry for all of these years and like the way to defeat it is to like hurt its feelings.

S26: And it’s very funny how long they yell and like what. Like it just the whole idea of like the way to defeat this supernatural crazy powerful bully is to just bully it back.

S14: You would call it anticlimactic if there wasn’t so much climate one performance that we have not talked about yet is the performance of Pennywise who is played by a scar scarred from doing what you work with first name. Bill Bennett’s bill scarred. He is out of makeup sometimes in this movie and has all the kinds of different forms and it’s quite delightful as Pennywise I think as far as you can be delightful in this role.

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S25: My favorite thing that I’ve learned about Bill Skarsgard as Penny Wise is that when his eye does the thing where they point in two different directions you can actually do that. Well I think Bill Hader was the one who said that at some press junket he was like you can actually do that and it’s quite scary. I’m like that honestly is the coolest thing I could have learned.

S11: I think that Tim Curry performance from the mini series is still the best Pennywise for. It’s just like so. But he did. I think scars guy does a really good job with the role. What to his credit he doesn’t try to replicate the Tim Curry performance which is just like really weird and creepy and like kind of a kind of comic in certain ways. And yes guys guy just like me totally goes throws himself into it. It’s like pretty cool to watch.

S14: Yeah I agree with you. There’s no being in Tim Curry in this role. It’s sort of like Anthony Hopkins Hannibal Lecter type of. Yeah. This is never going to be done. Other people can play and probably find out it but it will never be like that but I did think that overall in this he was pretty fun. So while we did a good job with that last hour through it but basically from there at he’s dead and they leave his body and they all surface back and we start getting analogs Bill haters.

S23: Epilogue is that he loved Eddie and he scratches their name to a poster or something and they don’t even say anything except the voiceover During the who’s kind of narrating the epilogue is Stan who has sent them all. I committed suicide letters. Yeah. Or maybe just one. It was one it was one that maybe it was his wife was like you need to see.

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S19: He Xeroxed it his last.

S22: I think it was like That was the implication. It’s like my last act.

S5: That’s just you know what.

S14: That’s the movie also. We’re kind of movie out quite a bit for its weird things but it also has this weird implication that he was noble by Yeah I mean him suicide and like it was either.

S19: Yeah that’s like that whole thing is like I was like Brother how do we know.

S14: He’s like I knew you could never succeed if I didn’t come back but I knew that you all need to be together so I decided to do this and he’s too My widowed my wife. Yes it’s it’s it’s quite it’s quite terrible.

S23: Anyways so they’re reading this someone’s reading this or maybe he’s reading the letter and he implores Bill here to be proud and a very pregnant scene where the cameras like just very trained on him and I’m just like Jesus. And then Jessica Chastain Beverly ends up with hot soap opera guy. Ben no longer abuse. That’s good. And then what happens to Mike.

S8: I can’t remember. Mike it’s implied that he’s gonna leave Derry and it for him to.

S25: I don’t know. It wasn’t the whole thing that if you leave dairy that’s how you forget. So like he’s leaving dairy. He will get to forget all of this. Wasn’t that an implication.

S14: Yes. And it seems ok that he’s going to forget because it’s something we should yeah. People maybe didn’t realize they really do kill it. It just turns out the Native Americans didn’t kill it like they thought they were going to but then they didn’t. But he they really did. He’s dead. It’s dead. It is dead. It is. And then who are we missing. Oh Bill. What happens with Bill. Does he have like a son or something.

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S19: This China finishing his novel. Yes. The novel. That’s right. After that long running joke about how he sucks at endings he finishes the novel.

S13: So the whole joke through the movie is that Bill can’t write an ending and all the endings of his movies are terrible. And you know it’s you can imagine why is me because he doesn’t have closure in dairy.

S5: But then he gets closure and I guess he writes endings also cause you know they just wanted to gently self self-effacing a Stephen King.

S14: Yeah yeah totally.

S8: And I mean it’s like that which is sort of like as a Stephen King fan. Like there’s actually Stephen King’s novels are like pretty good at a man.

S10: Like I don’t know if you guys have ever read misery. But it’s it’s kind of like misery is kind of a hilarious book that’s sort of like him imagining his own sort of position within one of his novels kind of thing. And same with Bill Devereaux the character in the book is very much obviously supposed to be sort of a Stephen King surrogate and yeah I rendered in a way that’s like pretty self-aware and like I mean King I think Stephen King’s got like a pretty pretty decent sense of humor about his own work and stuff. And by all accounts is just a pretty pretty cool guy.

S2: It seems to me that that’s definitely true and it’s worth noting that his cameo in the movie is with Bill is the James McAvoy character who is his surrogate. So I guess to wrap up here which will I. This is part of a huge spate of Stephen King adaptations. There’s so many now and he’s so brought back into pop culture and I’m wondering if either of you guys have a sense of why it is that he suddenly is so popular again other than its great IP. And also if you have any recommendations of the current ones that you think are the best ones I think we all agree that this was not necessarily the strongest of all the adaptations that have come out recently. Yeah. Do you want to start Laura.

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S29: I’m thinking I mean I do think that a big part of it is just the popular IP and also just sort of the compounding effect that you get for each project that successfully launches with Stephen King’s name on it right. That name then becomes more powerful.

S25: So I do think you know you can’t really overstate the importance of the fact that not only is this familiar IP that in some ways I think the fact that a lot of them have been adapted before helps even more. Even if you haven’t ever read a book by Stephen King you’ve probably seen something adapted from Stephen King.

S14: Yeah I think that it might be that there’s no big cultural explanation for this but I do think it’s interesting I mean I’m basically inviting Jack to talk about Castle Rock and also to diagnosis all thing things I quite like Castle Rock and I also am not I don’t mind revisiting these stories because I think that generally speaking that he has like quite an impressive sort of portfolio of adaptations I would say so take us out Jack.

S30: Yeah I mean I obviously I’ll try to keep this relatively brief but I mean that’s part of it is that like well I think King has grown immensely in stature in terms of like the recognition that his his work has gotten like he’s definitely someone that it wasn’t until relatively recently that people like you know sort of serious critics started being like oh OK actually this guy is like kind of contributed an enduring body of work and really it’s like has been really sort of influential in American literature and culture. So I think that that and a lot of the earlier adaptations the things that we’re seeing getting remade kind of reflect that that his work was really I think treated kind of shabbily and treated sort of like commodity. There’s a lot of really bad Stephen King adaptations. I mean there’s certainly some great ones but I think the majority are pretty bad. And so there’s a lot there that you can kind of go back to you know like we saw that with you know I didn’t see the pet cemetery remake but a lot of what we’re seeing is basically remakes at this point.

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S31: But yeah I mean again it’s it’s really valuable IP.

S30: And also I mean I think frankly like the fact that he or that the first it movie was so successful it’s like you know shockingly successful I think for most people that this was like a movie that just like so far exceeded expectations and now which is obviously there has been a run on his stuff that started before that. But I think it’s it’s only increased and Yeah. Castle Rock is pretty cool he’s also I think become more sort of interested on his own and with in this sort of stuff like he’s definitely you know he’s a executive producer and I think somewhat involved actually in the Castle Rock series and he’s also I if I could put in a plug he has written some really awesome stuff recently like his like I read his. I think it was his most recent novel is this book called The Outsider. That was great. Like it just was like it was as good is like. I mean it’s up there with I think like some of his best stuff. And he wrote that 11 22 63 book which was this weird concept but also was just like really well done got and these are books too that have gotten like really good reviews being reviewed a lot of getting like really major sort of contemporary novelists sort of sort of coming out of the woodwork and being like I love Stephen king you know particularly a younger generation. So I think all of that kind of kind of is playing into it.

S3: Yeah I think that’s probably true. I didn’t I didn’t really realize that he had recent books I had heard of the eleven twenty to sixty three. Interesting. Perhaps I will look up his outsider.

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S7: Yeah. It’s good.

S32: Well with that we have successfully won our spoiled imitation of a book that people said was unfathomable and we and you could perhaps say it’s unspoiled. But I think we kind of spoiled it. I think we spoiled the hell out of it. Good job. Us. Thank you so much for coming in Laura. Spending delights of course.

S33: And Jack your professorship is really coming through for us today. Thanks so much for everything that you’ve brought here. Chair of its studies temper if only.

S15: Thank you so much for your wise wise guidance through this sort of unknowable text.

S20: I appreciate it now. Thanks for having me on. This was really fun. Thank you everybody for listening. If you’ve seen this movie already I feel for you. And if you haven’t yet I hope that we absolves you of the need.