Does the Spirit Of the Game Matter?
Elizabeth Newcamp: This episode contains explicit language. Welcome to Mom and Dad are Fighting Slate’s parenting podcast for Monday, November 21st, The Sideline Struggles Edition. I’m Elizabeth Newcamp. I write the Homeschool and Family Travel blog that stats goose. I’m the mom of three Littles Henry who’s ten, Oliver who’s eight and Teddy who’s six. We live in Colorado Springs, Colorado.
Zak Rosen: I’m Zak Rosen. I am host of another show. It’s called The Best Advice Show. And I live in Detroit with my family. My oldest, Noah, is five and my youngest army is two.
Jamilah Lemieux: I’m Jamilah Lemieux, a writer and contributed to Slate’s Karen Feeding Parenting column and mom to Naima, who’s nine and a half. And we live in L.A..
Elizabeth Newcamp: Today we’re going to be talking about the challenge one dad is facing regarding his son’s unique approach to baseball. Just following the rules of the game really matter. But first, with Thanksgiving break looming, we wanted to talk about intentions for the week ahead spent with family, friends and kids home from school. Who wants to go first?
Zak Rosen: I can go. So next week, we will be having Thanksgiving at my mom’s house. And at the same time, Ciara’s siblings are going to be in town from out of town. All of the grandparents are here in Detroit, in metro Detroit. And I just realized today, if I want to, I can not work at least for like some of the holiday. And it was such a liberating thought to remember like, oh, like you don’t have to work all the time. You don’t have to put all this pressure on yourself. And so I just took some pressure off myself. And I’m feeling so much better about next week because I’m going to try to allow myself. I am I’m telling you, I am going to allow myself to just, like, chill out and spend time with my family. And if you are able, I know that’s a privilege, but if you’re able to step away from work, it might open up some emotional space. That’s kind of what it’s done for me.
Zak Rosen: I’m thinking like, okay, now that I don’t have to work, at least for a good chunk of it, I want to like, really, I’ve just been feeling so grateful lately and I want to, like, really try to embody that for Thanksgiving. We’ve talked about all the the kind of problematic themes and and history around Thanksgiving, but which we can also talk about with with our families. But like, just the simple thing which my family does some years. But then, like, sometimes we forget just that simple thing of like going around the table and everyone just saying like one thing they’re grateful for. Like, I want to really do that and like, be intentional about it because it’s always such a nice way to start the meal. And it’s so easy just to to not do that. So I just want to like, slow down and be explicit about my gratitude. Those are my intentions.
Elizabeth Newcamp: That’s so nice. Kids, really? You get to follow that up.
Jamilah Lemieux: Well, now you and I are going to New York for the week of Thanksgiving. We’ll be there all week. We get there on Monday. And my mom is going to join us on Wednesday. We usually do Thanksgiving in Chicago. But since we weren’t going, I thought it’d be nice for her to come. So sometime with us. I still don’t know what we’re doing for Thanksgiving dinner. I really want one of my friends to host. I’ve been trying to lean on him like so Thanksgiving. But I don’t know. We may end up going out to dinner, but, you know, as much work as I have to do, and I really.
Jamilah Lemieux: This is not a great time to have to take off a week of work, especially since this week, like there’s parent teacher conferences and school gets out early every day. And so my schedule is just kind of like whack. And I was home sick from school today. So not a big week of work before Thanksgiving and then the week of Thanksgiving just won’t be a work week. But I’m just going to forgive myself for that in advance and try my best to just enjoy being present with my family. Naima and I miss New York tremendously, so it’ll be really great to get back and see friends and, you know, sites and things that we love. And I’m very thankful that we were able to do that this year.
Zak Rosen: I love that idea of like, okay, maybe we’ll just go out to dinner, like taking some of the pressure off the meal because I think we sometimes just put too much pressure on the meal. Like, I think that would be like a fun novel way to spend the holiday. So that sounds fun.
Jamilah Lemieux: Yeah. One of our best Thanksgivings, we went to Chicago to visit my mom and we ended up and her birthday, I think fell on Thanksgiving that year and we went out to dinner instead of cooking. We have a big family in Chicago. They don’t really celebrate Thanksgiving. And so it’s like usually like, what are we going to do? You know, like, what’s the point of, like, cooking all this food if they’re just going to be a couple of us, you know? So, yeah, going out to dinner makes it easy. If you eat it, it’s done. It’s over. It’s not three days. The leftovers and two days of cooking. I think if I were in L.A., I would probably be shopping for dinner elsewhere. I mean, what you spend buying all the food, you know, you could go out to eat.
Elizabeth Newcamp: So true. My intention is to say no to the majority of invitations just because we have been on the go so much and the kids really expressed an interest of just kind of like being home for a little bit, which I completely get. And I’m feeling that too. So we have just like said no even to dinner invitations here. And I think the plan is to have Thanksgiving dinner with a very close friend that’s just like pop by their already having a lot of people over. We can eat there and then leave. So no expectations.
Elizabeth Newcamp: You know, we’re like in charge of something simple and then just kind of be home and maybe watch some movies together, like things that we don’t do a lot of like rest together as a family. We tend to be very like active and even just like we literally got home from our trip on our most recent trip on Monday and I was like looking at things, thinking like, Oh, well, this the North Pole here just opened their tickets, like, which is a little amusement park. Like, do we want to go to that? You know? And Jeff was like, No, no, we’re just going to say no and kind of like, be here. And if we’re bored and want to go out, there’s so much we can do right here, you know, just like going for a walk, trying to get back to kind of some of those simpler, easier things. Just giving the kids lots of time to be in in our house and like us spending time together.
Elizabeth Newcamp: And I think also for me, I have this tendency to think of holidays as like a time in which we can quote unquote, catch up with home school like, oh, we’re going to be home. We can get all this homeschool stuff done. And just releasing myself from that pressure to of like, well, no, it’s okay for us to take a break even though we’re all home. I’ve been saving up a bunch of the subscription boxes we get because the kids love those and just planning to be like, Pick what you want and just do it. It doesn’t matter if it’s, you know, topically relevant and things that I usually try to like, say like, Oh, this will be perfect for this unit. Like they sit in the closet waiting for that. And the kids really want to do them, like trying to say yes to some of those those things that I that I typically try to, I guess, control more.
Elizabeth Newcamp: So just having like a very my intention is to hopefully just have a very relaxed at home together as a family. No burdens, no major cooking, no you know that we don’t want to do I’m sure Jeff will break up a bunch of stuff because that’s what he likes to do. But yeah, well, listeners, we would love to hear your intentions for this week as well. So you can send them to us by recording a voice memo or send us an email to mom and dad at Slate.com. We’re going to take a break. And when we come back, we’ll be joined by a special guest.
Elizabeth Newcamp: We’re back and joined by Arthur Travis Nichols, who wrote this wonderful piece in Slate, My epic struggle to get my son to swing at one single youth baseball pitch. Even though fall Ball has pretty much wrapped up, the struggle Travis talks about certainly isn’t limited to baseball. Welcome to the show, Travis.
Speaker 4: Thank you so much.
Elizabeth Newcamp: So you wrote this piece My Epic Struggle to get my Son to Swing at one single youth baseball pitch during your son’s youth baseball season. That didn’t exactly go as planned. So, Travis, can you fill us in on what happened?
Speaker 4: Sure. Yeah. So my son is 11 years old and he really enjoys baseball, loves playing. We live in metro Atlanta. And metro Atlanta has a lot of these baseball programs, youth sports programs. We originally started right after COVID playing, and that’s a separate story. We ended up now over here in what I had hoped was like a low key, more low key environment away from some of the, you know, multi-million dollar, high pressure situations. And he’s really enjoyed it. But he started Kids Pitch, which is a little different. And his approach has been to not swing ever. And so you know how baseball works, which is that, you know, you get four balls as a walk, free strikes as an out. And so he’s figured out that these kids just can’t pitch well enough to usually get three strikes.
Speaker 4: So the season is now over. It wasn’t when I was writing the piece, but he ended up having something like 32 at bats, 29 walks, three strikeouts. And, you know, really this kind of like avant garde performance piece in the middle of this that drove his coach insane. And some of the other parents. So even in this like low key situation, there was his coach who was ex-Marine, would sit there on the third base side, just like writhing in the dirt, yelling, You got to swing, you got to swing. I think one of the things that’s interesting about it is it’s like you can’t get your kids to do anything. And he just wasn’t going to do it. And the coach would be like, why doesn’t he swing? And I’m like, You got to ask him. I don’t know.
Zak Rosen: Despite having, like the highest on base percentage of all time.
Speaker 4: Yes, it was not the coaches really nice guys got it. A lot of things. This was not something where he saw the data driven approach that my son was taking. He was just like, he wants people to look like ballplayers and do these different things. And he just could not understand why someone would go up there and and not swing. So he would get on base and he would he knows the game and is smart about it. So he would steal second steal third usually score. So he scored some ungodly number of runs without ever swinging or getting a hit. And so it was just this thing that had me thinking about, yeah, when your kids enter into these types of systems out in the world and they take these bizarro stances and how strategy and anxiety meet, and in these moments I just thought it was fascinating and also couldn’t stop thinking about it and agonizing over what I would do to try to get him to participate in the way that the system wanted him to. And he stuck to his guns. Yeah, I.
Elizabeth Newcamp: Guess I read it and thought like, gosh, he’s almost playing a different game than they’re playing. Like there’s this performative aspect to baseball that makes it fun to watch. And he’s not playing that game. He’s playing the game. How many times can I get on base, right? He’s playing the numbers game and he’s winning that game. But but you’re right. Like the system wants you to play the other day.
Speaker 4: Right? Well, it depends on which system. I mean, that’s what is so interesting is that he was like, I don’t understand, you know, the coaches having me bat last and he wouldn’t play them in the field sometimes because he was so frustrated with them. And he was you know, he’s you know, he’s a good player, No scouts coming to check him out or anything, but he knows what he’s doing. But he was like, he should beat me first because I can get on base and I can do these different things. I try to not directly criticize any of the coaches or the system. I ended up getting pulled in or pushed myself into the coaching situation because it’s again watching. I’m sure you have some familiarity with this, but like watching coaches or teachers and they do things and you’re like, I don’t need the system to be set up for my kid in particular to thrive, but I cannot handle watching. It approached in this way that it’s like no one is thriving. You might know the sport, but you don’t know kids. Can I please just intervene a tiny bit? And then that ended up pulling me into helping out coaching.
Jamilah Lemieux: So how does your son feel about playing baseball? Like, is this significant to him? Does it matter a lot? Does he really want to do this?
Speaker 4: It’s very hard to tell. He loves it and the concept of it. He watches baseball. He plays MLB, the show. He’s out in the yard hitting Wiffle balls and doing imaginary games. But I always have been like, You don’t have to if you don’t want to, it’s totally fine. Again, when we first started, my wife and I had. Had a policy of like an explicit no baseball policy because baseball parents are insane and too intense. And we were like, no, especially here. So we did a number of other things. But then COVID happened and he couldn’t do the indoor sports that he had been doing and or anything. And there is a program that started up nearby that we could walk to, and I was like, okay, we can do this. This is outdoors. And it was pretty masked up even then. So I think this is summer of 2020. And he was so excited. I loved it.
Speaker 4: And now I realize a little bit of the scam of some of the travel youth baseball things. But he was like on the All-Star team and got into then these wider things where you pay to play and then they’re professional athletes, kids playing, and his team got killed, his team being my team because I was coaching and he would go in after those games, we would be in a car and be crying.
Speaker 4: He was like, I thought you said this is supposed to be fun. So that he did not like. And so I was I was like, okay, you know, we don’t have to do this by any means. But then he wanted to find a different league to play in that was a little less intense, even though he liked his friends. And this one has been great for that. I mean, the kids are all awesome and he has good friends finding this one. We do have to drive half an hour and sometimes 45 minutes to get to this less intense one because the ones near us are all too much. So it’s three or four times a week.
Jamilah Lemieux: So you said he’s made great friends. What do they say about his approach to the game?
Speaker 4: They don’t care at all. Like they’re No one said anything. They were always just psyched that he would get on base and steal and score.
Zak Rosen: So he’s the only one that does it.
Speaker 4: Yeah. And so it’s interesting. So like in practice he, he can hit again. He’s not like crushing it out of the ballpark or anything, but he can hit so everybody knows he can do it. And then there’s some kids who step up and they just it’s their first time playing and not as coordinated or other things, but they’re just going up there and taking reps, like they’re just going to do it. And so they’re now, you know, hello dinky grounder and get thrown out. But then everybody, you know, they’re very supportive, but. Right. So no one was like in the dugout, none of the other kids but the coaches and some of the other parents definitely were in a particular kind of agony watching it because it wasn’t what you’re supposed to do, you know, it wasn’t what the system had been set up isn’t.
Elizabeth Newcamp: Maybe that’s okay. Like, isn’t this maybe a demonstration of him doing what he thinks is best? Because in one case that you talk about in the article, like you take this video to show him that it is not a ball and it is in fact a ball, like he’s able to see these pitches pretty well. So on some level, is it worth it? Just saying I’m going to let peer pressure society, whatever the theoretical rules of this game that we swing these pitches, take its course, and if he doesn’t want to do that and doesn’t give in to the pressure, good for him. And if he does, then that is okay too. You know what I mean? Like letting him. Because I think in some way this is a bigger picture about kind of what society is like. At what point am I going to decide, yeah, I’m going to play the game, to play the game, or I’m just not going to do it? I think a little bit we need more people that say, I don’t really care what you say. These are balls and I’m not saying it, but.
Speaker 4: This all sounds great. And theoretically I would approach every driving him to the games. I would be like, Travis, just chill out, let him do his thing. He’s got it and don’t say a word and he’ll have to decide on his own. And then he’d get up there and my heart would be in my throat and I would be like, Is he going to do it? Is he not going to do it? I came around towards the end of the season, especially as some of the other adults got more vocal about it, where I was like, Actually, I kind of hope he doesn’t do it. I hope he just sticks to his guns and just is like, You know what? I’m going to go the whole season and not do it. But I do think it’s the other thing of like, you know, if you’re one of the things my wife and I talked about is like if you observe your kid in a math class and it’s not going all that well, you don’t say, I’m going to be the math teacher or I’m going to sit over his shoulder and say, You should do it this way or that way.
Speaker 4: Sports, for whatever reason, is a little different. Or maybe it’s not. And maybe it’s a personal problem for me, but it is one of those where it is like, you can’t these kinds of coaches, these kind of situations exist in the world. And so if you’re putting your kid out there, they do have to learn how to deal with it. It’s very hard, though.
Zak Rosen: I’m curious, You write that your son idolizes people like Elon Musk and that he sees he likes the idea that the world’s problems are waiting for some new, ingenious, data driven solutions from unlikely thinkers. So when he is there idolizing Elon Musk, how does that make you feel? I’m just genuinely curious.
Speaker 4: Terrible. Absolutely terrible. Because there’s a masculinity problem there. It makes me recognize that, like Elon Musk is the perfect kind of cartoon hero for an 11 year old boy of a certain kind. And like the other kids, we’re talking about basketball and they were talking about the other like the players they really admired. And one of the kids just loved Kyrie Irving. So he’s got that handle and all these different things. And I was like, Oh, fascinating. Like, this is just so interesting.
Jamilah Lemieux: This is terrifying. Kyrie Irving.
Speaker 4: That’s another word for it.
Jamilah Lemieux: Oh, no. Kyrie Irving is like spreading conspiracy theories online. There is such a for that.
Speaker 4: I will say it’s before the recent meltdown, but it was still you know, it wasn’t hard to see that that’s where it was headed.
Jamilah Lemieux: Yeah there’s a strong balance and sell pipeline.
Speaker 4: For sure which is the worry of course. You know I think for boys in particular. And one of the things this thing. The dads involved in baseball. And one of the reasons we have the No baseball policy is because, especially in metro Atlanta, and especially when we were first looking at it, there was a lot of people whose politics were not our politics and who not only politics, but also their values seemed to not be our values. And it would be something where we would see that demonstrated and also see another way that kids would be involved in different things and just be like, Oh, God, we have to do proactive. Like if we let things just take their course, how they will take their course is to, you know, push and push kids toward like the inertia is towards the Elon Musk’s and the Kyrie Irving of the world, especially with online participation, with gaming.
Speaker 4: You know, we try to keep screen time, but also the level of social participation and gaming stuff at a minimum. But you just see it just over and over again, like, oh man, if you don’t intervene or don’t proactively take some measures to at least get them aware of where their, you know, boys are being pushed by even well-meaning systems, it’s pretty scary. Jamilah Terrifying is the right word.
Elizabeth Newcamp: I absolutely agree. I think one of the things, though, is offering to me, instead of being worried about whether he hits the ball right, the thing to be talking about are sort of these ideas of like, yes, there are, because I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the idea of being an out of the box thinker to solve the problem. Right? The problem is kind of where you take that, too. And so I wonder if for this particular hitting the ball situation, what you need to be checking in on is more like about the teammates and the friendship and the like. Do you feel like you’re being a good member of the team?
Elizabeth Newcamp: If that answer is yes, then this is a fine solution, right? But the moment that that becomes a no for him, he needs to change his behavior not because of the winning or the whatever, but because the value you’re trying to instill here by having him participate on a baseball team as being part of a team. And what does that mean and look like? Maybe just shifting your focus to say, like me teaching him to be a good team player? Maybe that doesn’t look like what I think it looks like, but is he maintaining these good relationships and is he checking in with his teammates?
Speaker 4: Yes. And I will say that, you know, outside of baseball, it was you know, one of the things I talk about in the piece, too, is that he, you know, is trying to do is math homework. And we got a test back and he had messed up, missed a problem. And it and it was like, hey, what happened here? And he was like, oh, I know how to do it. I just got the wrong answer. It’s fascinating.
Speaker 4: Okay, so here’s how this works. If you get the wrong answer, that means you don’t know how to do it in this instance. And he’s like, No, no, no. I just put the wrong numbers down. And I was like, okay, where do I begin here? Like, how do we get into this? Like, and so I did the Bill Parcells line, which is like, you are what your record says you are. And the look on his face was just like, That’s so unfair. Like, that makes no sense at all because I’m whatever this test is, what if there’s a glitch? And he went through all these different ideas of how the test could go wrong, all the different ways that computer could mess up, that the teacher could get something wrong and have nothing to do with who he is essentially as a person. And I was like, Oh, okay, sure, that could be true. But also you didn’t miss the problem.
Jamilah Lemieux: You know, my daughter took great offense to the idea of a test telling her that she hadn’t tried hard enough and that she didn’t know things. And I think it’s such an interesting attitude that might be common among younger kids that like, I mean, something that we’ve been trying to instill in them. Right. That like, tests are not a reflection of who you are.
Speaker 4: Right? A test measure is your ability to take the test. And yes, but then, yeah, the boomerang coming back around where you’re like, well, but I do want you to actually get the right answer when you know it. Sure.
Elizabeth Newcamp: Well, it’s still a gate. We talk about that because we don’t do tests or things like that. So we talk a lot about how sometimes you you are forced to demonstrate knowledge because it’s a societal gate and we are not outside of that society. I feel like I want to still participate in these things that they offer. And these gates exist and we have to participate in them. Or if we don’t, there are consequences to that, right? I mean, I think that’s kind of what we’re saying, is what are the consequences to not participating in this game? I think swinging at the baseball is is a low gate. It seems like at this point, like low consequence to not participating in the math test higher gate.
Speaker 4: Yeah. Well and I think this is where the Elon Musk and the Kyrie Irving come come in because it’s like these are people who are like, I don’t have to go through your gates. I’m going to say no. And that to an 11 year old boy, he’s like, Yeah, why would I have to? I mean, this is this is dumb. Like, this test is done, this umpire is done, so I shouldn’t have to do it. Some of that is probably reflecting my own values back to me in this funhouse mirror and the distorted, sad trombone that I have to listen to now. But it is like, Oh, yes, it is important to show that even if it’s. Dumb, even if it doesn’t seem like it has value. You want to do it so you can get where you need to go. But if you decide no, then okay. But then there will be consequences where you can’t opt out and not have consequences. We could all learn that lesson. That would really be something. I feel like I also could could use that lesson. And many people did say. Isn’t it supposed to be fun?
Elizabeth Newcamp: Well, Travis, thank you so much for joining us. We, of course, are going to link to Travis’s article, My Epic Struggle to Get My Son to Swing at one single youth baseball pitch in the show notes. And you can head to Slate.com to give it a read. Any chance you’d be up for sticking around for recommendations?
Speaker 4: Absolutely. I’d love to.
Elizabeth Newcamp: Great. We’ll do that right after our last break.
Elizabeth Newcamp: It’s finally time for recommendations. The part of the show where we shout things out that we love. Travis as our guest. What would you like to recommend?
Speaker 4: The first thing I’d like to recommend, because I’m here in Georgia, in metro Atlanta, is for people to vote in the runoffs. It turns out that it doesn’t seem like we’re now in the same way we were with Ossoff and Warnock, if you are Democrats. But it still is consequential. And so I’m really hoping everybody’s able to get out and do their part if they are so inclined. So that’s a big recommendation. Go vote.
Elizabeth Newcamp: Zack, what are you recommending?
Zak Rosen: Well, it just got cold here in Detroit. And so today is the first day of many days ahead of me in which I will be wearing my long underwear. And I love long underwear, particularly like there’s some there’s some thermal underwear that’s like, so thick that if you wear that with pants over, you’re too hot in your house. But I, I get this this thin kind of Wolverine brand. I bought it at, like my local Myer. It’s pretty affordable. So it’s kind of like leggings. And so I’m going to be wearing these most days of the winter, and it makes winter bearable and cozy.
Zak Rosen: And if you haven’t invested in in long underwear, I suggest you do it similar to like making an investment in good socks for the winter. It makes a world of difference. And like, you know, spending 20 to $40 or something on something like this, it’s just going to be so, so helpful to you. And both thermal underwear and nice socks are going to last you for some time. So treat yourself to some seasonal coziness.
Elizabeth Newcamp: I love this. I am a big I love thermal underwear. I like just the coziness. I always feel like it should be credited for the the time we spend outside in the winter, because I feel like without it, I’d be I’d want to be out of the park and, you know, like 8 minutes after we get out of the car, like, I’m done here. But I’m like, No, I’m cozy. It’s really What are you recommending?
Jamilah Lemieux: I am recommending, you know, I’ve been on my Baking thing for a while lately. I found another amazing chocolate cake recipe. This is a chocolate banana cake recipe from Joy of Baking. And it is so good. This is one of my favorite chocolate cake that I’ve ever definitely that I’ve ever made. Maybe one of the best ones that I’ve had. It’s just so moist. Like you can taste the bananas, but I don’t think of it as overwhelming if you’re not a big banana person and it has this really great ganache icing that is so easy to make. I’ve definitely had a hard time making ganache before, like trying to melt down the chocolate and not going well. And it’s just so good. Joy of Baking is a cooking website that’s been around for like 25 years. And I think it’s a husband and wife that bake and take pictures of their baking. And it’s just really, really, really good.
Zak Rosen: This reminds me. So, you know, we always return to the mom and dad cookbook that we’re going to make. Right. And I think as we refine our concept for the cookbook, it could be like, it’s not just our recipes, but we can talk to other parents about what they make that their kid actually eats, you know? So maybe it could be something like that where it’s kind of part interview, part, you know, Trojan horse meals for for families. So so publishers were here. We got the concept.
Speaker 4: I had a great conversation once with a friend of mine who’s a food critic, and he has kids that are the same age as mine. And as we were talking, I was like, Oh, so your kids must. And before I even got the sentence out, he was like, Nope, nope, they won’t even eat the same chicken nuggets they last week. It’s just gets reduced. The palate is is so small. And I was like, Oh, thank God. Okay, I feel better.
Elizabeth Newcamp: It’s not you. It’s them. It’s the children.
Speaker 4: Yeah, my, it’s a little bit me, but that’s okay.
Elizabeth Newcamp: Well, I’m recommending an Instagram account. Andrea Nelson Art. She’s the story of a woman who does art. She seems like the kind of person I would want to be friends with, But the reason I’m recommending it, she’s doing 30 days of handmade holiday crafts. They are all so very doable. She tells you what you know you probably have at home and if you don’t like where to go, get it. And what I love is that all the stuff she’s doing is really editable for any holiday, any celebration. Like you can pocket these for summer break or for other times you have your kids home.
Elizabeth Newcamp: We like to do a lot of crafts, but we just did this one she recommended where we painted spoon handles like those fancy ones that look kind of dip to a We did them at home and the kids used kind of finger painting. They turned out super cute. I didn’t know there was like a Marge Podge type thing you can use to make it dishwasher safe. But we tried it out and sure enough, they wash up just fine. I ran it through. Just had it sitting in there running of a. Cycles to see if it would actually come off. And it’s great. And I think they’re going to make really cute gifts for people, you know, to just put a little wooden spoon. And she told me where to get, you know, a set of three for just a few bucks. And so it’s great. So go check that out. Lots of fun activity ideas.
Elizabeth Newcamp: That’s it for our show. We don’t have a show on Thursday, but we’ll be back in your feeds bright and early on Monday. The best way to not miss a show is to subscribe to us wherever you get your podcasts, then our episodes will just pop up. No further work. This episode of Mom and Dad are Fighting is produced by Christy Taiwo Makanjuola and Rosemary Belson for Travis Nichols, Jamilah Lemieux and Zak Rosen. I’m Elizabeth Newcamp. Thanks for listening.
